So Why Aren't You Catholic Yet?

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1311309463' post='2273615']
Of course you are a member of this phamily, we just want you join the tribe
[/quote]

I feel very complimented that you consider me one of the phamily. You (or anyone else on Phatmass) is free to pray for my conversion if you want to, and I will also feel very complimented that you want me to join the tribe.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1311309615' post='2273617']
you're confusing yourself with your wife. lol...
[/quote]
I'm roasting. And about my wife - agreed.

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1311310059' post='2273621']
I feel very complimented that you consider me one of the phamily. You (or anyone else on Phatmass) is free to pray for my conversion if you want to, and I will also feel very complimented that you want me to join the tribe.
[/quote]
This.

[Paddington]

The Pope has a Super Nintendo and like 50 games. Eats baby-back ribs whenever he wants.

[Mr.Cat]

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

[stevil]

It seems like a lottery really. With no proof or evidence what so ever for any religion, I am really confused as to how a person picks one over the other.
I would say in most cases it is based on family or society influence. But of course there are always exceptions.

I don't think the Hare Krishna's do themselves any favours jumping up and down on street corners though.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311319546' post='2273662']
It seems like a lottery really. With no proof or evidence what so ever for any religion, I am really confused as to how a person picks one over the other.
I would say in most cases it is based on family or society influence. But of course there are always exceptions.

I don't think the Hare Krishna's do themselves any favours jumping up and down on street corners though.
[/quote]

Maybe. I know more than a few converts whose family, friends, and co-workers did not look kindly on their conversion. I lost nearly all of my friends, only my former best friend still talks to me, and only on rare occasion. I think the same could be said about atheism though - that there are some who become atheist for the acceptance of a particular group of people or due to social influence. I think it is too simplistic to write it off as just the need for acceptance or such influences though. Just as you find atheism the most reasonable solution to the evidence you have been presented, so too I find in [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html"]Catholicism[/url].

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1311310059' post='2273621']
I feel very complimented that you consider me one of the phamily. You (or anyone else on Phatmass) is free to pray for my conversion if you want to, and I will also feel very complimented that you want me to join the tribe.
[/quote]
lol how could you NOT be phamily????

[stevil]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311343459' post='2273759']
Maybe. I know more than a few converts whose family, friends, and co-workers did not look kindly on their conversion. I lost nearly all of my friends, only my former best friend still talks to me, and only on rare occasion. I think the same could be said about atheism though - that there are some who become atheist for the acceptance of a particular group of people or due to social influence. I think it is too simplistic to write it off as just the need for acceptance or such influences though. Just as you find atheism the most reasonable solution to the evidence you have been presented, so too I find in [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html"]Catholicism[/url].
[/quote]
The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound.
I don't frequent any organisation (church) in order to learn what is right or wrong, or to learn how I should behave or treat others. I don't give up my own personal values and adhere to someone else's with a thinking of "they know better than me, so although I don't understand it, I'll just go with what they say". I take personal responsibility for my own actions and thoughts, I could never bestow that responsibility onto a "higher" authority, e.g. Church.

I feel someone taking on a religion, and accepting a church, is deciding in someways to take on all that the church teaches and to learn to believe that their church is right and everyone else is wrong. But with the multitude of religions and churchs, how does one decide which one of them is more correct than the others?

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954']
The thing about Atheism though is that there really isn't an -ism. It is simply a personal lack of belief I have in any of the god theories which are abound.
I don't frequent any organisation (church) in order to learn what is right or wrong, or to learn how I should behave or treat others. I don't give up my own personal values and adhere to someone else's with a thinking of "they know better than me, so although I don't understand it, I'll just go with what they say". I take personal responsibility for my own actions and thoughts, I could never bestow that responsibility onto a "higher" authority, e.g. Church.[/quote]

Two things:

1) Deciding not to believe in any god theory is also a decision. There's no default position.
2) Choosing to affiliate with a religion does not remove personal responsibility for ones actions and thoughts.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311365464' post='2273954']I feel someone taking on a religion, and accepting a church, is deciding in someways to take on all that the church teaches and to learn to believe that their church is right and everyone else is wrong. But with the multitude of religions and churchs, how does one decide which one of them is more correct than the others?
[/quote]

My decision came down to whether I believed the bible was accurate or a collection of fairy tales. As far as Catholicism goes, I think it's the most true to the original teachings of the Christ.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311366818' post='2273962']
Two things:

1) Deciding not to believe in any god theory is also a decision. There's no default position.
2) Choosing to affiliate with a religion does not remove personal responsibility for ones actions and thoughts.
[/quote]
1. I was born without a belief in god, so was my neighbor's dog. My car also laks a belief in god. It is the default position for me.
2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311367689' post='2273971']2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.[/quote]Catholics attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. There is more social support and and acceptance among atheists, also more freedom.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311367689' post='2273971']
1. I was born without a belief in god, so was my neighbor's dog. My car also laks a belief in god. It is the default position for me.
2. I have seen Catholics getting attacked by other Catholics on this forum when they disagree with Church teachings.
[/quote]

1. How do you define the term "default position" in this context? Your comment doesn't make sense to me, which probably means that I didn't express myself properly above.
2. I'm not sure what that has to do with personal responsibility.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311367880' post='2273973']
Catholics attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. There is more social support and and acceptance among atheists, also more freedom.
[/quote]

Humans attack and reject their own frequently and often, with little or no reason. Catholics do not have a copyright on this.

That fact that a person feels more social support, acceptance, and freedom as an atheist doesn't mean that someone else will feel the same way. Also, it's possible that someone else may not want that kind of social support, acceptance, and freedom. Some people find following church teachings to be challenging and isolating - but prefer it to other alternatives. They still have freedom, they choose to follow church teachings.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Well....considering that Jesus created ONE Church and that ONE Church still exists as He promised and that everyone who is validly baptized is a member of the mystical Body of Christ which is that ONE Church.....


All validly baptized Christians are in fact Catholic, whether they acknowledge this fact or not.


I love our Separated Brethren, for they ARE indeed our brethren.

[stevil]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1311369422' post='2273979']
1. How do you define the term "default position" in this context? Your comment doesn't make sense to me, which probably means that I didn't express myself properly above.

2. I'm not sure what that has to do with personal responsibility.
[/quote]
1. I think this is pretty obvious. It comes down to where the burdon of proof is, in a situation where there isn't proof one way or another.
Would I attend church, get babtised, avoid contraceptives, pray and the like if I understood that there was no evidence of god? If I thought that belief in god were the default position then i would do these things until someone could prove that there was no god.
However for me the default position is that there is no god. I am not going to teach my stance or persuade others to give up their religion, because I have no proof of my stance. But, for me to attend Church and listen to them tell me what is right and wrong, I would have to be shown proof that there is a god and that this god is somehing that I would want to align with and that these teachings are aligned with this god's will.
Currently I do not feel Christianity has any more credance than Islam, Hindu, Greek, Norse, Maori, Bhudism, Scientology, Masonary etc.

2. The personal responsibility of working out what is right or wrong. I am happy to listen to and discuss these things with other people with different backgrounds, different world views. I am even willing to change my mind on these things given a well reasoned and thoughtfull argument. But religious people only take this responsibility in so far as making an effort to understand or simply agree to the viewpoint of their church. In this way they have deligated this responsibility onto their church rather than to take personal responsibility.
You could say that they have excercised their personal responsibility by deligating to their church but ultimately it means they have deligated that responsibility

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311372246' post='2274003']
1. I think this is pretty obvious. It comes down to where the burdon of proof is, in a situation where there isn't proof one way or another.
Would I attend church, get babtised, avoid contraceptives, pray and the like if I understood that there was no evidence of god? If I thought that belief in god were the default position then i would do these things until someone could prove that there was no god.
However for me the default position is that there is no god. I am not going to teach my stance or persuade others to give up their religion, because I have no proof of my stance. But, for me to attend Church and listen to them tell me what is right and wrong, I would have to be shown proof that there is a god and that this god is somehing that I would want to align with and that these teachings are aligned with this god's will.
Currently I do not feel Christianity has any more credance than Islam, Hindu, Greek, Norse, Maori, Bhudism, Scientology, Masonary etc.
[/quote]

Ah. Okay. When I said that there is no default position, I meant that there is no proof one way or the other, so we must choose. What you see as your default position I see as a choice that you have made. (I still don't know why you compared yourself to a dog and a car.)

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311372246' post='2274003']
2. The personal responsibility of working out what is right or wrong. I am happy to listen to and discuss these things with other people with different backgrounds, different world views. I am even willing to change my mind on these things given a well reasoned and thoughtfull argument. But religious people only take this responsibility in so far as making an effort to understand or simply agree to the viewpoint of their church. In this way they have deligated this responsibility onto their church rather than to take personal responsibility.
You could say that they have excercised their personal responsibility by deligating to their church but ultimately it means they have deligated that responsibility
[/quote]

Are you suggesting that most atheists are as thoughtful and responsible as you are? Or that most religious people are rigid and, therefore, irresponsible?


The Catholic church teaches its followers to follow the example of Christ in the scriptures. He was a rebel for his time, associating with those that were considered outcasts, dirty, even cursed. Of course there are examples of Catholic people failing to meet that standard, but I don't blame the religion for that. If I were to judge the church based solely on the people sitting next to me in the pews, I would have left a very long time ago. If others were to judge the church based on me... well... depending on what day it was... let's just say that I'm glad they don't. Again, this isn't a Catholic or religious phenomenon. It's human nature. The only people who don't fail are those who never try something difficult.