Nihil Obstat Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311285665' post='2273219'] See, I disagree here (shocker). Can two homosexuals be in a romantic relationship that is also chaste and in line with the Church? It seems to me that a relationship where neither party is engaging in premarital sex is kind of the goal of all Catholic relationships. Thus, would the genders of the two parties even matter, if there isn't any sex happening? How would it be any different than any other heterosexual non-marital relationship that was chaste? [/quote] A chaste romantic relationship......... It's a grayer area, but I'm leaning towards the negative. Since the desire itself is [i]objectively disordered[/i], any entertaining of that desire becomes, to some degree, sinful. Similar to when anyone willingly entertains lustful or impure thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311285856' post='2273225'] A chaste romantic relationship......... It's a grayer area, but I'm leaning towards the negative. Since the desire itself is [i]objectively disordered[/i], any entertaining of that desire becomes, to some degree, sinful. Similar to when anyone willingly entertains lustful or impure thoughts. [/quote] So, even if both are mutually-committed to chastity and fidelity, they're [i]still[/i] FUBAR? Is this your opinion or that of the Church? Just checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Oh, another tip: When discussing hate as the result of fear (in the area of homosexuality (and really any other sensitive human issue)), it's probably better to say SOONER that you don't hate homosexual men and women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1311285749' post='2273222'] This demonstrates my point very well - in that you are able to maintain healthy boundaries with another HUMAN PERSON without struggle. It does not matter that he is homosexual, you can still be friends. It's like people are ... AFRAID ... of homosexual men and women. They hold them at a distance and talk about Truth and "charity" and "love" without ever putting it into ACTUAL practice. [/quote] Make no mistake about it: I accept him for who and what he is. If we were at a bar, and someone called him a "fag" or something, I'd have to pulled off of that person's bloody visage by the US Marine Corps! But you're right--who he dates has no impact on our friendship. Sure, there are differences of opinion and arguments--particularly whenever we are playing Scategories against each other with our significant others. But nothing two straight dudes wouldn't experience as well. They're just people. No need to treat them any different. (It's absurd that I even had to TYPE that last sentence) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311286527' post='2273236'] Make no mistake about it: I accept him for who and what he is. If we were at a bar, and someone called him a "fag" or something, I'd have to pulled off of that person's bloody visage by the US Marine Corps! But you're right--who he dates has no impact on our friendship. Sure, there are differences of opinion and arguments--particularly whenever we are playing Scategories against each other with our significant others. But nothing two straight dudes wouldn't experience as well. They're just people. No need to treat them any different. (It's absurd that I even had to TYPE that last sentence) [/quote] Make that last TWO sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311286143' post='2273233'] So, even if both are mutually-committed to chastity and fidelity, they're [i]still[/i] FUBAR? Is this your opinion or that of the Church? Just checking. [/quote] If they're committed to fidelity to the Church, then they'd have to work to overcome their [i]objectively disordered[/i] desire. They'd still be entertaining objectively disordered inclinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Nihil Obstat claimed homosexuality was "[u][b]objectively[/b][/u] disordered". I want evidence of that. Edited July 21, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311286857' post='2273241'] Nihil Obstat claimed homosexuality was "[u][b]objectively[/b][/u] disordered". I want evidence of that. [/quote] Read the Catechism. Another definition needs to be made. People here are interchanging homosexuality and homosexual. They're not the same thing. Anyone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is objectively disordered doesn't agree with the teaching of the Church on a matter of morality (which is infallible), and is therefore a heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1311289102' post='2273254'] Anyone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is objectively disordered doesn't agree with the teaching of the Church on a matter of morality (which is infallible), and is therefore a heretic. [/quote] Is it as simple as that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311285320' post='2273209'] My point remains that if a homosexual person is propositioning someone else, any relationship, no matter what form it takes, cannot be acceptable in the eyes of the Church, whereas this is not true for an opposite-sex pairing. While such a relationship *may* not be acceptable to the Church, it also may become something holy. Also, as we have established elsewhere, a same sex sexual relationship is objectively considered a graver sin than a sexual relationship between two people of opposite genders. [/quote] This is a very bizarre justification for homophobia (and yes, being afraid to be hit on by someone of the same sex [i]does[/i] stray into that category). [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311286653' post='2273238'] If they're committed to fidelity to the Church, then they'd have to work to overcome their [i]objectively disordered[/i] desire. They'd still be entertaining objectively disordered inclinations. [/quote] Explain this, please. Do you mean that they should work to "pray away the gay" or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311286857' post='2273241'] Nihil Obstat claimed homosexuality was "[u][b]objectively[/b][/u] disordered". I want evidence of that. [/quote] This is another term that needs defining. It doesn't mean "the opposite of subjective" in this case - detached, scientific, any of that. It's a philosophical term that originate around the time of Aquinas (I dont' know who acutally coined it, though). Every human capacity has its proper [b]object[/b] to which that capacity should be directed - the object of the faculty of sight is light; the object of the faculty of taste is flavors; the object of the capacity of hearing is sound. In the case of the senses, we can't hear light, see flavors, or smell sounds. When a human faculty is directed toward an inapporpriate [b]object[/b], it is said to be [b]object[/b]ively disordered. In terms of the human faculty of sexuality, the Church teaches that its proper object is persons of the opposite sex. If the object of one's sexuality is persons of the same sex, then it's directed at an inappropriate object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311290009' post='2273260'] This is a very bizarre justification for homophobia (and yes, being afraid to be hit on by someone of the same sex [i]does[/i] stray into that category). Explain this, please. Do you mean that they should work to "pray away the gay" or something? [/quote] Homophobia? Hardly. I simply find it more distasteful to be 'hit on' by a man than by a woman. As I explained, it is impossible for a male/male romantic/sexual relationship to be anything less than disordered in the eyes of the Church. The same is not true for a male/female romantic/sexual relationship. Even if those relationships start sinfully they can still be purified. The only way to purify a homosexual relationship is by ending it. All I mean by my second post is what we say on Phatmass constantly. Same sex attraction is a unique burden for some individuals, and it is up to them to take up that cross, deny themselves, and follow Christ. Just as you and I are not to entertain lustful thoughts, a man with SSA is not to entertain his homosexual desires. He should pray for strength to remain in a state of grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311304820' post='2273445'] All I mean by my second post is what we say on Phatmass constantly. Same sex attraction is a unique burden for some individuals, and it is up to them to take up that cross, deny themselves, and follow Christ. Just as you and I are not to entertain lustful thoughts, a man with SSA is not to entertain his homosexual desires. He should pray for strength to remain in a state of grace. [/quote] But, as Catholics, we are still allowed to date and remain chaste with members of the opposite sex. You believe that is still sinful, correct? Does the Church agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311305024' post='2273451'] But, as Catholics, we are still allowed to date and remain chaste with members of the opposite sex. You believe that is still sinful, correct? Does the Church agree? [/quote] A dating relationship is meant to prepare and lead to marriage. Since this is impossible in a same-sex relationship, that is simply one other reason that such a relationship is not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311305333' post='2273457'] A dating relationship is meant to prepare and lead to marriage. Since this is impossible in a same-sex relationship, that is simply one other reason that such a relationship is not acceptable. [/quote] Again, is this your opinion, based on your understanding of related--but not specific-- Church teachings? Or is it the ACTUAL teaching of the Church? Just checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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