revelations Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][b]Psalm 34:4 [/b]I sought the LORD, and He heard me, and delivered me from all my [b]fears[/b].[/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Okay. Show me the scientific proof that homosexual behavior is a product of the natural environment. That is, how is it supported by evolution? [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311458233' post='2274489'] "Proof? I don't need no stinkin' proof!!!" Let's play a game. How about we NOT cast doubt on "science" (by that, I mean rational statements that can be proven with empirical research)? Let's also not talk smack about "popular statistics," which, to be sure, has to be the lamest phrase ever uttered on Phatmass. What statistical measure or method would ever be "popular?" [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1311453974' post='2274453'] I don't have the time or place of mind to find a reference in the Catechism (which one, by the way?). I used to be that guy, who would get into online arguments and then go and find a whole bunch of text I could dump on the screen to make myself look smart. Find the reference yourself. [/quote] Not that it will stop the atheist trolls, but here's the reference: [quote]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. [b]Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[/b]142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b]This inclination, which is objectively disordered[/b], constitutes for most of them a trial.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311458233' post='2274489'] "Proof? I don't need no stinkin' proof!!!" Let's play a game. How about we NOT cast doubt on "science" (by that, I mean rational statements that can be proven with empirical research)? Let's also not talk smack about "popular statistics," which, to be sure, has to be the lamest phrase ever uttered on Phatmass. What statistical measure or method would ever be "popular?" [/quote] Yes, we all know that objective morality, as taught by the Church, must now be replaced by "science." (Never mind the inconvenient fact that science, as such, can tell us absolutely nothing about the morality of an action, or what[i] ought[/i] to be done, or ought not be done.) And now "science" need not be burdened by such tedious old-fashioned processes as the scientific method, but merely consists of democratically popular opinion of guys with PhDs. If enough people with academic letters after their name have the opinion that homosexuality is natural and moral, then it must be moral, dammit! To contradict such opinion would be "unscientific"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311440323' post='2274353'] I don't agree with this. I think protestantism has done far more damage (arguably even including leading to the popular thought of homosexuality as not sinful). [/quote] I think by far the most damage was done by original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1311396390' post='2274190'] You're entitled to your opinion Lillabett but its incorrect. People believe the conspiracy theory about "politics" but it wasn't true. I had several professors when I was getting my master's who were active in the contraversy as well. Homosexuals can function in our society and not be adversely affected. I said it was based on their ability to function in society. yes psychopaths can be happy but they aren't functioning in society. But if a behavior can fit within the bell curve of a society, it is no longer considered a disorder. Women were diagnosed with hysteria on a regular basis simply because they had a hard time submitting to the will of their husbands. Hysteria was a female disorder. An offensive one but it still was a "legitimate" diagnosis. Well its been a long time since I've gotten my masters and I don't have my DSM in front of me. You may be right that its not a personality disorder, but I do know that its permanence is on the same level. That's what got us in the mess with scandal. Psychologists were the ones who told bishops that therapy and moving the priest would resolve the problem. They were wrong. I will go back and look at my notes when I get home [/quote] Someone can have a seriously disordered sexuality and still "function in society." There are people with all kinds of perversions can "function in society" (or at least as long as they are able to keep their perversions hidden from the general public). [quote]"But if a behavior can fit within the bell curve of a society, it is no longer considered a disorder."[/quote] Thus, the more disordered society becomes, the more deviant behavior will be labeled "normal" and acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1311478560' post='2274676'] Thus, the more disordered society becomes, the more deviant behavior will be labeled "normal" and acceptable. [/quote] You are exactly right. I'm not arguing the morality of the behavior. Psychology (like every other science) has no business discerning what is moral and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1311478201' post='2274672'] I think by far the most damage was done by original sin. [/quote] You win this round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1311478139' post='2274670'] And now "science" need not be burdened by such tedious old-fashioned processes as the scientific method, but merely consists of democratically popular opinion of guys with PhDs. If enough people with academic letters after their name have the opinion that homosexuality is natural and moral, then it must be moral, dammit! To contradict such opinion would be "unscientific"! [/quote] It seems to be a growing trend in our society that educated people and scientists are viewed as "despised elites" and decried somehow as "politically biased", in order to somehow diminish their very real research, facts and life's work, when it is inconvenient, to serve that part of society's political bias. not a fan. besides, jaimie laid out why your statement is irrelevant. Also, when you refer to Science as "science" with the quotation marks, its like advertising that you dropped out of school in grade 9 to pursue a career as a Wal Mart greeter. Edited July 24, 2011 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1311470520' post='2274572'] Okay. Show me the scientific proof that homosexual behavior is a product of the natural environment. That is, how is it supported by evolution? [/quote] I'm majoring in mathematics. I've taken college physics, chemistry, and biology. I've taken courses in Philosophy of Science and Theology and Science. I believe that I have enough scientific background to enter into serious discussion here. Now please, answer my question. How are homosexual tendencies supported in the biological, natural world? How are the behaviors justifiably "normal" in light of Natural Selection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1311485944' post='2274754'] I'm majoring in mathematics. I've taken college physics, chemistry, and biology. I've taken courses in Philosophy of Science and Theology and Science. I believe that I have enough scientific background to enter into serious discussion here. Now please, answer my question. How are homosexual tendencies supported in the biological, natural world? How are the behaviors justifiably "normal" in light of Natural Selection? [/quote] well, there are plenty of cases of animals having homosexual relations. not exactly uncommon in certain breeds. and also there was some study recently, on how there is an increased tendency for later offspring(like the 4th child born, etc) to become homosexual, i cant remember all of it now, but the general gist was that these later "different" offspring served a pretty good social service, filling a role somewhere between men and women, helping with child rearing, were not considered as dangerous rivals for mating, etc. this could be way off base, it was a while since i read the article.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1311486553' post='2274763'] well, there are plenty of cases of animals having homosexual relations. not exactly uncommon in certain breeds. [/quote] Yes, and they generally do so only when there is not a female around with whom to fulfill their "urges" I should hope that free will gave man a bit more control than that. [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1311486553' post='2274763'] and also there was some study recently, on how there is an increased tendency for later offspring(like the 4th child born, etc) to become homosexual, i cant remember all of it now, but the general gist was that these later "different" offspring served a pretty good social service, filling a role somewhere between men and women, helping with child rearing, were not considered as dangerous rivals for mating, etc. this could be way off base, it was a while since i read the article.. [/quote] Interesting. Proof? Is this only in societies that flourish well in the environment? I'm assuming that they would be among the first to die in hazardous environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1311485393' post='2274749'] It seems to be a growing trend in our society that educated people and scientists are viewed as "despised elites" and decried somehow as "politically biased", in order to somehow diminish their very real research, facts and life's work, when it is inconvenient, to serve that part of society's political bias. not a fan.[/quote] ^^^THIS^^^ [quote]Also, when you refer to Science as "science" with the quotation marks, its like advertising that you dropped out of school in grade 9 to pursue a career as a Wal Mart greeter. [/quote] HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 No man is born with natural desires to want to have sex with a man. Its satanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1311501492' post='2274808'] No man is born with natural desires to want to have sex with a man. Its satanic. [/quote] Luke/Matthew 6. Stop judging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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