Homophobic

[Luigi]

In another thread - probably lots of other threads - the term 'homophobic' is being used. According to the poster, the Church, most of society, mopst societies on earth, right-wingers, they're all homophobic.

I suggested a month or two ago, when some pretty hot & heavy arguments were going on, that people should define their terms. It's simply a necessary step in argumentation. So I'd like us to discuss the definition of 'homophobic.'

The term homophobic means "afraid of homosexuals." It was coined in 1972 by psychologist George Weinberg in his book [u]Society and the Healthy Homosexual [/u]to refer to individuals who do not support homosexuals, on the assumption that those who do not support homosexuals are actually afraid of them - the assumption that hatred is motivated by fear.

1. While it's true that some hatred is the result of fear (I am afraid of snakes, so I hate snakes), not ALL hatred is the result of fear.

2. Additionally, non-support of homosexuals is not the same thing as hatred of homosexuals.

I think the term 'homophobic' is a misnomer, at least for most people most of the time.


Discuss amongst ya'selves.

[Deus te Amat]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Now, for some beer!

[MissScripture]

But, Luigi, you're missing an important point. If we DEFINE terms, then we can't change them to mean what we want them to mean as the need arises!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']
In another thread - probably lots of other threads - the term 'homophobic' is being used. According to the poster, the Church, most of society, mopst societies on earth, right-wingers, they're all homophobic.

I suggested a month or two ago, when some pretty hot & heavy arguments were going on, that people should define their terms. It's simply a necessary step in argumentation. So I'd like us to discuss the definition of 'homophobic.'

The term homophobic means "afraid of homosexuals." It was coined in 1972 by psychologist George Weinberg in his book [u]Society and the Healthy Homosexual [/u]to refer to individuals who do not support homosexuals, on the assumption that those who do not support homosexuals are actually afraid of them - the assumption that hatred is motivated by fear.

1. While it's true that some hatred is the result of fear (I am afraid of snakes, so I hate snakes), not ALL hatred is the result of fear.

2. Additionally, non-support of homosexuals is not the same thing as hatred of homosexuals.

I think the term 'homophobic' is a misnomer, at least for most people most of the time.


Discuss amongst ya'selves.
[/quote]
you must secretly be a homo. get outta here! we don't take none too kindly to your kind!!

[i]sarcasm meter 5/5[/i]

when i wrote this, i was being sorely tested by another poster, and this post was in pure jest towards the attitude of another poster. i realize now that it can be mis-construed and i want to make my original intent clear.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Lil Red

[Luigi]

From [u]Through the Looking Glass:[/u]

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

[Luigi]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1311225547' post='2272333']
you must secretly be a homo. get outta here! we don't take none too kindly to your kind!!

[i]sarcasm meter 5/5[/i]
[/quote]


Just don't stand at the urinal next to me, bro....

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']
In another thread - probably lots of other threads - the term 'homophobic' is being used. According to the poster, the Church, most of society, mopst societies on earth, right-wingers, they're all homophobic.

I suggested a month or two ago, when some pretty hot & heavy arguments were going on, that people should define their terms. It's simply a necessary step in argumentation. So I'd like us to discuss the definition of 'homophobic.'

The term homophobic means "afraid of homosexuals." It was coined in 1972 by psychologist George Weinberg in his book [u]Society and the Healthy Homosexual [/u]to refer to individuals who do not support homosexuals, on the assumption that those who do not support homosexuals are actually afraid of them - the assumption that hatred is motivated by fear.

1. While it's true that some hatred is the result of fear (I am afraid of snakes, so I hate snakes), not ALL hatred is the result of fear.

2. Additionally, non-support of homosexuals is not the same thing as hatred of homosexuals.

I think the term 'homophobic' is a misnomer, at least for most people most of the time.


Discuss amongst ya'selves.
[/quote]
Agreed. Usually calling someone a homophobe is a smear tactic designed to denigrate people who disagree with the gay lifestyle for very legitimate reasons. It also proves that the person doing it has no actual argument and has resorted to name-calling , like bullies in a play ground.
Phobia refers to fear, and I have never met anyone "afraid" of homosexuals.
There are some people out their who do hate homosexuals on general principles, most are some type of fringe fundamentalists, but I have never met a believing catholic claim that particular sin.

[Luigi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1311225939' post='2272349']
Phobia refers to fear, and I have never met anyone "afraid" of homosexuals.
[/quote]


Acutally, when I was younger, I was afraid of homosexuals a number of times.

Fourteen years old. Cutting an old lady's lawn. Have my four-year-old sister with me to get her out of Mom's hair. Guy - sort of strange, but what do I know? I'm only fourteen - asks if I want to cut his lawn, too. I need the money, so I do. It's a hot day. He and his friend ask if we want some lemonade. We go inside. They ask if my sister wants to see their aquarium. She does. We follow them down the hall to a bedroom. The sort of strange one sits on a bed inside the room, the big one stands in the doorway. They start asking me questions. I'm not always sure exactly what they're asking. I finally figure it out. I can hardly breathe - they've got us blocked in the room. I say, "I have to get her home for her nap." We don't finish the lemonade. I was afraid. Very afraid.

Riding the city bus to high school. Gorman gets on a couple of stops after me and sits down beside me. A couple of stops later, an older guy - maybe fifty - gets on the bus. There's something odd about him, but I couldn't've told you what. He walks down the aisle looking for a seat, only I glance up to see that he's looking at our crotches. He looks away quickly. Happens again and again. I develop the habit of holding my books on my lap. Gorman spreads his legs to tease the guy.

Fifteen years old. My brother (sixteen) & I work downtown, until 9 p.m. We always take the bus home. We're waiting for the bus when a guy pulls up and asks directions to such & so. We're both Boy Scouts, we wanna be helpful, we give him directions. He says he's from out of town and doesn't really know his way around - would we mind riding with him to show him how to get there? We agree. My brother sits in the front, I sit in the back. The guy says something to my brother - all I catch is "...make five dollars?" I need the money. My brother tells him, "NO" much more firmly than he usually speaks. The guy says something about ten bucks. My brother says, "NO" again. The car stops at a light - we haven't arrived at such & so yet, but my brother starts getting out of the car. I don't know what's going on, but I get out, too. My brother explains. I was afraid.

Later that same summer. Mom had just had her eleventh baby. My brother didn't work that night. I worked in a restaurant that always had a big floral centerpiece that they pitched on Friday night. When I got off at 9, I asked the hostess if I could have the centerpiece to take home to my mom. She lets me. I'm sitting on the sidewalk, leaning up against the bank wall, with the flowers next to me. A heavy-set guy with Elvis hair pulls up to the curb and hollers out, "What are you selling, kid, your flowers or yourself?" I didn't know what he meant. I said, "What?" He repeated the question. I said, "Neither." He laughed and drove on. I was afraid he might come back, so I picked up the flowers and started walking up the street to meet the bus.

Sixteen years old. Cold as all hell. Waiting for the bus to go to school, with Gorman. A guy offers us a ride - says he's going right past our school to the Catholic hospital. Gorman gets in the front seat, I get in the back, grateful as all hell. We're driving through a really rough part of town - no possibility of getting out and walking the rest of the way - when I hear Gorman say, "Ummmm...." I look up. We're at a stoplight. I look up. Gorman and the driver are looking each other straight in the face, and Gorman says - like he's joking about something he's just discovered - "There's a hand on my leg!" as he grabs the driver's wrist and put the driver's hand back on the sterring wheel. We ride in silence for another mile until we get to school. We get out without thanking the guy.

Junior year of high school. Brother Tony shows up at the locker room right at the end of gym class, week after week, while we're all coming out of the showers and lining up to give Coach our number so he can mark us as having attended class that day. Brother Tony simply [i]has [/i]to talk to Coach about this project or that topic. I don't believe he ever looked at Coach as they were talking.

So there have been times when I was afraid of homosexuals. And I had good reason to be. I'm older now, I understand more, I can take care of myself - I'm not afraid.

But I still don't support gay marriage, civil unions, or lots of other elements of the gay agenda. But it doesn't mean I'm homophobic.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Luigi

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311227842' post='2272425']
Acutally, when I was younger, I was afraid of homosexuals a number of times.

Fourteen years old. Cutting an old lady's lawn. Have my four-year-old sister with me to get her out of Mom's hair. Guy - sort of strange, but what do I know? I'm only fourteen - asks if I want to cut his lawn, too. I need the money, so I do. It's a hot day. He and his friend ask if we want some lemonade. We go inside. They ask if my sister wants to see their aquarium. She does. We follow them down the hall to a bedroom. The sort of strange one sits on a bed inside the room, the big one stands in the doorway. They start asking me questions. I'm not always sure exactly what they're asking. I finally figure it out. I can hardly breathe - they've got us blocked in the room. I say, "I have to get her home for her nap." We don't finish the lemonade. I was afraid. Very afraid.

Riding the city bus to high school. Gorman gets on a couple of stops after me and sits down beside me. A couple of stops later, a older guy - maybe fifty - gets on the bus. There's something odd about him, but I couldn't've told you what. He walks down the aisle looking for a seat, only I glance up to see that he's looking at our crotches. He looks away quickly. Happens again and again. I develop the habit of holding my books on my lap. Gorman spreads his legs to tease the guy.

Fifteen years old. My brother (sixteen) & I work downtown, until 9 p.m. We always take the bus home. We're waiting for the bus when a guy pulls up and asks directions to such & so. We're both Boy Scouts, we wanna be helpful, we give him directions. He says he's from out of town and doesn't really know his way around - would we mind riding with him to show him how to get there? We agree. My brother sits in the fron, I sit in the back. The guy says something to my brother - all I catch is "...make five dollars?" I need the money. My brother tells him, "NO" much more firmly than he usually speaks. The guy says something about ten bucks. My brother says, "NO" again. The car stops at a light - we have arrived at thus & so yet, but my brother starts getting out of the car. I don't know what's going on, but I get out, too. My brother explains. I was afraid.

Later that same summer. Mom had just had her eleventh baby. My brother didn't work that night. I worked in a restaurant that always had a big floral centerpiece that they pitched on Friday night. When I got off at 9, I asked the hostess if I could have the centerpiece to take home to my mom. She let me. I'm sitting on the sidewalk, leaning up against the bank wall, with the flowers next to me. A heavy-set guy with Elvis hair pulls up to the curb and hollers out, "What are you selling, kid, your flowers or yourself?" I didn't know what he meant. I said, "What?" He repeated the question. I said, "Neither." He laughed and drove on. I was afraid he might come back, so I picked up the flowers and started walking up the street to meet the bus.

Sixteen years old. Cold as all hell. Waiting for the bus to go to school, with Gorman. A guy offers us a ride - says he's going right past our school to the Catholic hospital. Gorman gets in the front seat, I get in the back, grateful as all hell. We're driving through a really rough part of town - no possibility of getting out and walking the rest of the way - when I hear Gorman say, "Ummmm...." I look up. We're at a stoplight. I look up. Gorman and the driver are looking each other straight in the face, and Gorman says - like he's joking about something he's just discovered - "There's a hand on my leg!" as he grabs the driver's wrist and put the driver's hand back on the sterring wheel. We ride in silence for another mile until we get to school. We get out without thanking the guy.

Junior year of high school. Brother Tony shows up at the locker room right at the end of gym class, week after week, while we're all coming out of the showers and lining up to give Coach our number so he can mark us as having attended class that day. Brother Tony simply [i]has [/i]to talk to Coach about this project or that topic. I don't believe he ever looked at Coach as they were talking.

So there have been times when I was afraid of homosexuals. And I had good reason to be. I'm older now, I understand more, I can take care of myself - I'm not afraid.

But I still don't support gay marriage, civil unions, or lots of other elements of the gay agenda. But it doesn't mean I'm homophobic.
[/quote]
Would you say it more a function of your age and inexperience? I found many things to be afraid of when I was a teen as well, but when posting my answer, I was thinking of adults not teens.

[Luigi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1311228028' post='2272438']
Would you say it more a function of your age and inexperience? I found many things to be afraid of when I was a teen as well, but when posting my answer, I was thinking of adults not teens.
[/quote]

Probably. Most adults aren't afraid of most homosexuals. But any strong experience - fear, joy, pride - stay with you for a long time. People who don't have a reflective cast of mind are liable to let those kinds of experiences be the basis for their on-going opinion. I still don't blame themm; if there are people out there who hate homosexuals as the result of scary teenage experiences - if they are literally homophobic - then I blame the homosexuals themselves, who engendered the fear of homosexuals.

[kujo]

I think the term has evolved to mean any person who has any sort of aversion--short of and up to a full-on hatred-- to homosexuals.

[MIKolbe]

and I would think that definitiion would be wrong.

[ParadiseFound]

It's a word which is often used simply to stifle debate. If you have a disapproving view of homosexuality you must be a "homophobe". If you don't agree with the core principles of Islam you must be an "Islamophobe". If you think immigration into your country should be more limited you must be a "racist".

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311253691' post='2272593']
I think the term has evolved to mean any person who has any sort of aversion--short of and up to a full-on hatred-- to homosexuals.
[/quote]
I think the term has "evolved" to be insulting and shut down actual conversation, because the person saying it lacks the intelligence to have an cogent argument.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']In another thread - probably lots of other threads - the term 'homophobic' is being used. According to the poster, the Church, most of society, mopst societies on earth, right-wingers, they're all homophobic.[/quote]I don't know who said this, but I would say their overly generalizing the matter. But I do agree, homophobia has been a common theme in the groups mentioned, hopefully not as much as in previous times.[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']I suggested a month or two ago, when some pretty hot & heavy arguments were going on, that people should define their terms. It's simply a necessary step in argumentation. So I'd like us to discuss the definition of 'homophobic.'[/quote]Homophobia generally is negative attitudes and behavior against homosexuals or homosexuality, such as discrimination or contempt.[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']The term homophobic means "afraid of homosexuals." It was coined in 1972 by psychologist George Weinberg in his book [u]Society and the Healthy Homosexual [/u]to refer to individuals who do not support homosexuals, on the assumption that those who do not support homosexuals are actually afraid of them - the assumption that hatred is motivated by fear.[/quote]Respectfully disagreed, while the word "phobia" comes from the Greek word "phobos" meaning fear, phobia has come to mean fear, dislike, aversion, anxiety, uneasiness, or similar attitudes or behavior. Since one hypothetically can have a phobia without being aware of it, it doesn't necessarily mean the person is aware of the behavior or attitude they manifest. The word "[i]homophobic[/i]" doesn't ONLY mean clear manifestations of fear or hate, at least that isn't how the word is commonly used.[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']1. While it's true that some hatred is the result of fear (I am afraid of snakes, so I hate snakes), not ALL hatred is the result of fear.

2. Additionally, non-support of homosexuals is not the same thing as hatred of homosexuals.[/quote]IF by "[i]non-support[/i]" you mean indifference or neutral, I am inclined to agree.

But if by non-support of homosexuality you mean support of anti-homosexuality, I am inclined to disagree.[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']I think the term 'homophobic' is a misnomer, at least for most people most of the time.[/quote]Clear manifestations of homophobia are rare.

Such as clear manifestations of xenophobia, racism, misogyny, and misanthropy are rare.[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1311225213' post='2272319']Discuss amongst ya'selves.[/quote]You are thinking way too hard about this. I understand its disheartening to be labeled, even by proxy, to something perceived to be negative. But trying to redefine a word from its common use doesn't help.

People don't want to be called what they don't want to be, moreover when its negative or remotely accurate.

But... since I subscribe to the hierarchy of disagreement, calling someone homophobia tends to be name calling and a personal attack, and the lowest response in a discussion. Which I think is the argument of many Catholics here, but there does exist homophobia among Catholics.

I recall a phone call with a former friend who was offended and scoffed me, when I was a Catholic, for being friends with a homosexual girl without clearly condemning her sinful way of life. I immediately pointed out that it was implicitly understood and that they don't have an easy life, that I would be a bad friend to just periodically condemn them. My former friend, still a "[i]good[/i]" Catholic, told me that I was a "[i]bad[/i]" Catholic for this.

This phone call was in fact the start of a long line of events with this person that lead to the dissolution of our friendship and my distaste for Catholics, since I haven't met a Catholic yet who is willing to admit their behavior was inappropriate.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat