Hutterites

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311183588' post='2271633']
You should get one of these:
[img]http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/M212.jpg[/img]
It's what I got.
[/quote]
I don't like the shape of that one. It's got pointy ends.

Also I went to the site and read the reviews. THOSE are the types of people who follow the Austrian School? Wow. (I'd post excerpts but they're not fit for a Catholic site or for mixed company).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311192282' post='2271869']
I don't like the shape of that one. It's got pointy ends.

Also I went to the site and read the reviews. THOSE are the types of people who follow the Austrian School? Wow. (I'd post excerpts but they're not fit for a Catholic site or for mixed company).
[/quote]
Pointy ends are the slightly less common but still traditional style of bow ties.
As to the rest...... as a Catholic you should know as well as anyone that you can't condemn a group based on the appearances (or rather ribald remarks) of a minority.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311192784' post='2271882']
Pointy ends are the slightly less common but still traditional style of bow ties.[/quote]
Meh, still don't like them.[quote]
As to the rest...... as a Catholic you should know as well as anyone that you can't condemn a group based on the appearances (or rather ribald remarks) of a minority.
[/quote]
Wasn't condemning a whole group, just shocked that people who follow that would talk like that (particularly since 3 of 4 of the reviews were all equally vulgar, and the last one was a troll saying how he'd like to punch them all in the throats.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311192784' post='2271882']
...ribald...
[/quote]
[img]http://thumbnails.hulu.com/8/253/21322_512x288_manicured__Ejoo2+C4QU2vL2EVU51M9A.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311192282' post='2271869']
Also I went to the site and read the reviews. THOSE are the types of people who follow the Austrian School? Wow. (I'd post excerpts but they're not fit for a Catholic site or for mixed company).
[/quote]
I wanna see. Got a link?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311193634' post='2271896']
I wanna see. Got a link?
[/quote]
[spoiler]
Under "reviews":
http://mises.org/store/Mises-Crest-Bow-Tie-Burgundy-P76C85.aspx[/spoiler]

[Vincent Vega]

Okay so the one comment that I thought was offensive is innocuous. But the other two.

[Winchester]

The Lin Baio guy is a dork. Also, there's a truly amesome comment on there.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1311193724' post='2271897']
[spoiler]
Under "reviews":
http://mises.org/store/Mises-Crest-Bow-Tie-Burgundy-P76C85.aspx[/spoiler]
[/quote]
Yikes! That was bizarre.

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1311191128' post='2271846']
SHUN THE NONBELIEVER!
SHUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
[/quote]

That sounds downright Old Order Amish (Meidung).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sistersintigo' timestamp='1311195152' post='2271929']
That sounds downright Old Order Amish (Meidung).
[/quote]
Charlie the Unicorn, but it was a valiant effort regardless.

[krissylou]

Okay, folks.

This is what I know.

Hutterites, along with Amish and Mennonites, and probably a bunch of others, are in the Anabaptist tradition of the Radical Reformation. Doctrinally, they are going to be similar. Adult baptism, literal seriously-not-messing-around interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount, etc.

Menno Simons (--> Mennonites) got this ball rolling. But while Luther and Calvin had relatively clear successors, there was no such obvious Heir Apparent for the Anabaptist tradition and it splintered QUICKLY with Jacob Amman having a group (Amish) and I'm sure there must have been a Mr. Hutter in there too.

One of the distinguishing factors of Anabaptist theology is that it really doesn't try to directly influence the wider community and culture. Aquinas and followers were spitting out all kinds of 'instructions' for society as a whole based on natural law. (Which is a laudable goal but if you ask me they tended to have much more specific prescriptions than can really be justified based on reason alone. Still, a valiant effort.) Calvin was MORE than happy to just plain run Geneva according to Reformed principles.

Anabaptists, of whatever stripe, think this is a TERRIBLE idea. When these things get mixed up, the church always ends up losing. We should not pollute ourselves in such ways, with such power, but instead separate off and create our own society. We influence the wider culture is simply by being a light unto it, showing another option. In order to do that we need to maintain separation.

Christians should never hold political office, in this view. Or serve in the military. Or be a police officer. Traditionally, Anabaptists wouldn't even VOTE.

(If you're interested in understanding this line of thought, check out The Politics of Jesus by John Howard Yoder, who was Mennonite.)

This can rub everybody else the wrong way. A lot of their tradition of simple living comes from their history of frequently being run out of town. And being run out of town is an expensive proposition so you'd better have money saved so you're ready to pick up and go (and help your neighbors go too) when you get run out of town the next time. Anabaptists had the distinct disadvantage of being seriously seriously disliked by BOTH Catholics AND (the other) Protestants. This was rough.

Valuing that sort of separation from the world can easily look (and sometimes be!) cult-like. How many people think of monasteries as cult-like?

Hutterites seem to be distinct among Anabaptists by living more communally. Almost like a monastery, with most things owned in common, careers are generally chosen according to what the community needs. (We could really use some more medical care, so let's send the next young adult off to become a nurse practitioner. I met someone who lived in a Bruderhof community who had exactly that story.) Much like a monastic way of life, except people get married and you can be born into it rather than clearly choosing such a vocation. (Although through history there were lots of child oblates given to monasteries who did not ever choose such a life. That may not be SO different.)

The discussion of massive farming operations and buying up land -- I don't know, but it reminded me a lot of the monasteries in the old days where the monks (or nuns) did not own anything as individuals but the community was often (and was expected to be!) quite wealthy indeed, with vast holdings. I could easily see how the Hutterites' emphasis on communal living would provide a huge economic advantage over individual families.

I'm not sure I'd put them in the same category as ADM, tho.

So that's pretty dang countercultural.

[Vincent Vega]

No you're wrong.

[SNJM]

When I visited Sioux Falls, South Dakota a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to visit a Hutterite Colony. We had a tour of their entire colony, including their school and dairy farm. They are Anabaptists which is what the Mennonites and Amish are, but they live in community. For them, that means they live on the same land (each family has their own "home" - the one we visited looked like the homes were sort of like large trailers with nice gardens). Single people live alone. Unlike the Amish, they use modern equipment like computers and phones, and obviously, farming equipment. But they are asked - regarding the internet - to be mindful of the role it plays in each person's life and to limit use. For a small donation, outsiders can join their main meal, which we did. (I think it was 5.00, and very good.) They eat all their meals together. They pray together in the morning and in the evening. They seem very "balanced" in that corporate decisions are made through discussion, discernment, prayer and open conversation. Work is spread out in pretty traditional formats - the women cook and clean, while the men do the heavy manual labor. While they don't take a formal vow of poverty, they do choose to live simply and share their resources with one another. Shopping for major supplies (bathroom tissue, etc.) is done by different people and stored in a large cupboard (also - I saw a lot of snacks - like applesauce or yogurt as an example) and over each bundle of "supplies" (maybe things individual families requested?) was a little tag indicating who it was for. As they need things, they go into the cupboard and take whatever they need but obviously with an eye for simplicity. Our guide was a single woman in her 40's. I have continued to correspond with her, and I can report to you all (if this is a serious conversation) that she was very, very open during our tour. I asked very direct questions about freedom, the roles of women (they can't drive), medical care and everything else I could think of asking (forced marriage? etc). I am an anthropologist and was fascinated by our tour. I also asked about how they handle people leaving, people joining (or converting) and if there was any sort of punishment or punitive system set up. She gave me straight forward answers and included some intimate details regarding her own family and life. Personally, I did not see any evidence of cult-like behavior. Had certain areas been "off-limits" to us, I would have wondered, just as if she had refused to answer some of my questions or had she been vague. We spent an entire day there, and they only thing we did not see was the private dwelling spaces of the families.


I understand, from reading and different forums, that they are very successful in farming. Not being in that business, I don't know how things work, but I can tell you that what I witnessed (and continue to hear about through her letters) is that they are very hard workers, and I can see why they are so successful given that they have such a streamlined organization of people committed to the work.

They definitely have some characteristics of cults - they have their own language for one thing, but the more ominous characteristics of a destructive cult, I didn't see. Those characteristics would be a living leader, heavy recruitment, us vs. them mentality, planned spontaneity/mystical experiences, etc. I realize someone could argue that they do in fact have an "us vs. them" sense/mentality, and to a certain degree I see that (hard to enter into the colony/community for one thing) but they are very much out in the world, open to guests, seek appropriate medical treatment and are currently - as a group - participating with a team of doctors/researchers from a University in exploring genetic defects specific to them. A cult would not allow that.

I did take many, many photos. If anybody is interested in seeing any of them, let me know. I could create a slideshow or something, and it might give you a better idea of their life.


After all of this - interestingly enough! - they DO have a shoplifting "problem." Our guide was very forthright about this and I almost couldn't believe her. Later on in our trip, some of us were in Yankton, and if you can believe it, I saw some Hutterite women from another colony - shoplifting - right in front of me! Our guide had expressed sorrow that people seemed reluctant to "tell on" the offenders. I did. And the store manager let the two women leave the store with the stolen items in their purse! There are lots of articles and theories about this "problem" all of which can be found on the internet.

I am no authority, but if anybody has any questions or wants to see pictures, please email me. I hardly ever check in and caught this by an alert.

God bless you all.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='SNJM' timestamp='1311216505' post='2272209']
When I visited Sioux Falls, South Dakota a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to visit a Hutterite Colony. We had a tour of their entire colony, including their school and dairy farm. They are Anabaptists which is what the Mennonites and Amish are, but they live in community. For them, that means they live on the same land (each family has their own "home" - the one we visited looked like the homes were sort of like large trailers with nice gardens). Single people live alone. Unlike the Amish, they use modern equipment like computers and phones, and obviously, farming equipment. But they are asked - regarding the internet - to be mindful of the role it plays in each person's life and to limit use. For a small donation, outsiders can join their main meal, which we did. (I think it was 5.00, and very good.) They eat all their meals together. They pray together in the morning and in the evening. They seem very "balanced" in that corporate decisions are made through discussion, discernment, prayer and open conversation. Work is spread out in pretty traditional formats - the women cook and clean, while the men do the heavy manual labor. While they don't take a formal vow of poverty, they do choose to live simply and share their resources with one another. Shopping for major supplies (bathroom tissue, etc.) is done by different people and stored in a large cupboard (also - I saw a lot of snacks - like applesauce or yogurt as an example) and over each bundle of "supplies" (maybe things individual families requested?) was a little tag indicating who it was for. As they need things, they go into the cupboard and take whatever they need but obviously with an eye for simplicity. Our guide was a single woman in her 40's. I have continued to correspond with her, and I can report to you all (if this is a serious conversation) that she was very, very open during our tour. I asked very direct questions about freedom, the roles of women (they can't drive), medical care and everything else I could think of asking (forced marriage? etc). I am an anthropologist and was fascinated by our tour. I also asked about how they handle people leaving, people joining (or converting) and if there was any sort of punishment or punitive system set up. She gave me straight forward answers and included some intimate details regarding her own family and life. Personally, I did not see any evidence of cult-like behavior. Had certain areas been "off-limits" to us, I would have wondered, just as if she had refused to answer some of my questions or had she been vague. We spent an entire day there, and they only thing we did not see was the private dwelling spaces of the families.


I understand, from reading and different forums, that they are very successful in farming. Not being in that business, I don't know how things work, but I can tell you that what I witnessed (and continue to hear about through her letters) is that they are very hard workers, and I can see why they are so successful given that they have such a streamlined organization of people committed to the work.

They definitely have some characteristics of cults - they have their own language for one thing, but the more ominous characteristics of a destructive cult, I didn't see. Those characteristics would be a living leader, heavy recruitment, us vs. them mentality, planned spontaneity/mystical experiences, etc. I realize someone could argue that they do in fact have an "us vs. them" sense/mentality, and to a certain degree I see that (hard to enter into the colony/community for one thing) but they are very much out in the world, open to guests, seek appropriate medical treatment and are currently - as a group - participating with a team of doctors/researchers from a University in exploring genetic defects specific to them. A cult would not allow that.

I did take many, many photos. If anybody is interested in seeing any of them, let me know. I could create a slideshow or something, and it might give you a better idea of their life.


After all of this - interestingly enough! - they DO have a shoplifting "problem." Our guide was very forthright about this and I almost couldn't believe her. Later on in our trip, some of us were in Yankton, and if you can believe it, I saw some Hutterite women from another colony - shoplifting - right in front of me! Our guide had expressed sorrow that people seemed reluctant to "tell on" the offenders. I did. And the store manager let the two women leave the store with the stolen items in their purse! There are lots of articles and theories about this "problem" all of which can be found on the internet.

I am no authority, but if anybody has any questions or wants to see pictures, please email me. I hardly ever check in and caught this by an alert.

God bless you all.
[/quote]

Thanks! That was really informative!