Morality=Proof Of God

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Polsky215' timestamp='1310941513' post='2268905']Fyodor Dostoyevsky says, "if there were no God, he would have to be invented."
[/quote]That was Voltaire, lovable rogue as he was: si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Kia ora

[1catholic]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1311078527' post='2269943']
That was Voltaire, lovable rogue as he was: si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer.
[/quote]

[color=#333333][font=Helvetica, Verdana, Geneva, Arial, sans-serif][size=2]
[b]The Idea of God[/b]
[color=#333333][font=Helvetica, Verdana, Geneva, Arial, sans-serif][size=2][left]posted on 04.10.2006 at 1:36 PM[/left][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=Helvetica, Verdana, Geneva, Arial, sans-serif][size=2][left]Is it really as pretty an idea as our tortured, intermittently immoral [url="http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/2006/04/denominations_o_2.html"]atheist [/url]Ivan Karamazov maintains in Dostoyevsky's [url="http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/2006/04/favorite_readin.html"]novel[/url]?[img]http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/Dostoyevsky.jpg[/img][/left][/size][/font][/color]

[indent][b]"If there were no God, he would have to be [/b][url="http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/2006/04/civilization.html"][b]invented[/b][/url][b].[/b] And what's strange, what would be marvellous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man. So holy it is, so touching, so wise and so great a credit it does to man."[/indent][indent]
[/indent][indent][color=#000000][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=3][url="http://www.futureofthebook.org/mitchellstephens/archives/dostoyevsky/"]Without Gods: Dostoyevsky Archives[/url][/size][/font][/color][/indent][/size][/font][/color]

[Kia ora]

Well it wasn't Dostoevsky who said those lines, it was his character Ivan. The actual context:

"You know, dear boy, there was an old sinner in the eighteenth century who declared that, if there were no God, he would have to be invented. S'il n'existait pas Dieu, il faudrait l'inventer. And man has actually invented God. And what's strange..."

So it comes down to Voltaire again.

And I'm not so sure Ivan Karamazov is an atheist. He certainly claims to believe in God.

[sixpence]

[quote name='Polsky215' timestamp='1311044615' post='2269830']

Objection 1: "Morality" is just instinct. People dont like seeing other people die because they dont want to die
Reply: If so the stronger instinct (actually not wanting to die) would prevail over the lesser. Thus, jumping in front of the bullet would not be compatible with "morality" as an instinct.

Objection 2: "Morality" is a social construct that is taught. A man grown up on an island would not have morality.
Reply: A man on an island would likely lack the capability to do math. yet, math is true. We may learn morality, but that doesnt make it any less true. Once we have learned morality it takes for one to illogically call something like utilitarinism morality (this is clearly demonstrated in the paper) in order to not follow morality. Similarily it takes for one to be illogical to deny math. Likewise, someone CAN deny the existence of math, but they will be going as much against their mind as if they denied that shooting the man was wrong.

I encourage you to read this. I promise it will be worth your while.
[url="http://bonevac.info/325/Pritchard.pdf"]http://bonevac.info/325/Pritchard.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

this is better

[Polsky215]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1311078527' post='2269943']&lt;br /&gt;That was Voltaire, lovable rogue as he was:  si  Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer.&lt;br /&gt;[/quote]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />Indeed. Its a wonderful quote. Mentioned many times in Brothers Karamazov.

My take on Ivan is that he is like Sartre. If the world is the world of Euclidean Geometry, then God probably exists. But it doesnt matter to Ivan because if God exists, he will not except him. He does not except the plan that allows for the boy to be eaten by dogs.

Nischze (sp) "disproved" God by saying. If God exists, how could I bear not to be God. Thus God cannot exist. Ivan and Sartre take similar emotional rejections of God. At the heart of what they say is the lack of care whether or not God exists.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Polsky215

[sixpence]

*bump* <-- whoa! that was fun.. never bumped a thread before!
just saw this online... in relation to care for the elderly...http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/jul/24/prehistoric-man-helped-as-elderly-survived