Irish Gov't Intros Bill To Mandate Reporting Of Abuse,

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310795915' post='2268131']
But you can understand why many people are not willing to leave it to the Church's prerogative, Father. Or at least I hope you can. I don't have any sort of vendetta against Priests. Almost every Priest or Religious I've ever known has been a learned, pious man. That doesn't change the fact that the Church had the opportunity to use the confessional to persuade predators to turn themselves in and they failed miserably. The Church failed for decades to eradicate the systemic problem of sexual predators within the ranks of the Priesthood. People really are not willing to give the Church the benefit of the doubt like that. And they're really not wrong to be skeptical. I don't deny that the Church has taken real, serious steps to fix the problems of the past. But those steps seem to have been taken after the lid blew. Trust is something that has to be earned and right now that trust just largely isn't there in this respect.
[/quote]


ppffftt!! the steps taken by the Church are the same kind of steps taken by every other organization at that time. Most of this carp happened during the liberal 60s-80s when the prevailing mindset was to reform the predator. Doesn't make it right, but ya seem very selective to condemn Holy Mother Church and Her shepherds while giving the public school systems, mental institutions, and Prots a free pass. Just sayin...

The confessional aint a counseling session. It's reconciliation and absolution. Its for healing of the soul, not therapy of the mind.

[4588686]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1310829512' post='2268216']
ppffftt!! the steps taken by the Church are the same kind of steps taken by every other organization at that time. Most of this carp happened during the liberal 60s-80s when the prevailing mindset was to reform the predator. Doesn't make it right, but ya seem very selective to condemn Holy Mother Church and Her shepherds while giving the public school systems, mental institutions, and Prots a free pass. Just sayin...[/QUOTE]


If there were a teachers union that claimed that they get a special pass on reporting abuse when it's divulged in some special context I'd say about the thing.

[QUOTE]The confessional aint a counseling session. It's reconciliation and absolution. Its for healing of the soul, not therapy of the mind.
[/quote]

That is really irrelevant.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1310773852' post='2267984']
[b]The Irish bishops will most likely make an extraordinary dispensation for this matter[/b]. Although they shall hardly have to implement it. I doubt people who gravely harm children will be waltzing into the box anytime soon. Besides that, it's Ireland not much sacramental activity going on anyway.
[/quote]
Impossible.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310831189' post='2268223']
If there were a teachers union that claimed that they get a special pass on reporting abuse when it's divulged in some special context I'd say about the thing.



That is really irrelevant.
[/quote]

no it isnt. you said "That doesn't change the fact that the Church had the opportunity to use the confessional to persuade predators to turn themselves in and they failed miserably."

Strawman alert!

That's like saying I had a chance to rob a bank with a hotdog and I failed because I was out of ketchup. Same relevance.

[CatherineM]

Okay, a pedophile confesses. The Priest doesn't turn him in. How do the cops find out to prosecute the priest, clairvoyance? If the victim comes forward, the priest not coming forward is moot. If the victim doesn't come forward, or if the perp doesn't confess to the police, how exactly is this law supposed to be enforced.

[Aloysius]

it's unenforcable except in the rare case that someone could prove they had confessed to the priest, unless we're going to take the word of pedophiles in order to convict priests of "failing to report".

it's ineffective: if priests are known to report to the police, pedophiles will not reveal this sin to priests.

it's counter-productive: pedophiles no longer at least talking to priests about their problems will make them even worse offenders.

here's my solution: since it's debatable whether a priest can without absolution until a pedophile turns himself in, let's make it clear: place a latae sentantiae (automatic) interdict upon anyone who commits child abuse, an interdict that can only be lifted when one has turned oneself in (an interdict forbids one from receiving the sacraments, including absolution, except in danger of death). we have an automatic excommunication for those who procur abortions, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to single out a particular sin like that; we have already defined that sin, when done by a priest, as one of the gravia delecta (grave delicts, ie grave crimes) that are reserved to the CDF only, why not further legislate against it in canon law?

I understand people are mad at the way the Church handled things; but the fact is, the Church's failings were never about the confessional; the Church failed to respond when it heard things outside of the confessional. Diocesan offices make it very clear that there is a difference between the internal forum and the external forum, and no one in the Church talks about what has been said or done in the internal forum, because they are not allowed to. the internal forum might as well be the pedophile himself talking one-on-one with God, and this law would perport to try to bug the ear of God Himself. yes, we all want to fight seual abuse of children, but we not only SHOULD NOT try to bug the ear of God, we CANNOT bug the ear of God. nor can we bug the ear of the priest--priests only know things about the internal forum the way God knows them, they do not know them as men; therefore, if the police were to ask a priest if he had knowledge of some particular case of abuse, the correct answer would be NO, because the policeman asked the priest as a man, the policeman cannot question the priest of what he knows as God knows.

any law trying to break into the seal of the confessional is a moot letter: it's unenforceable, ineffective, and counterproductive. but if we pushed for the canon law of the Church to apply an interdict so that no child abuser was permitted to receive absolution unless they turned themself in, then we could ensure that the ONE and ONLY person that the pedophile MIGHT telll about his crimes was definitely trying to convince him to turn himself in. if the law were effective, it is likely the pedophile would only retreat deeper into his darkness and not tell ANYONE about what he has done.

[4588686]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1310847953' post='2268296']
it's unenforcable except in the rare case that someone could prove they had confessed to the priest, unless we're going to take the word of pedophiles in order to convict priests of "failing to report".

it's ineffective: if priests are known to report to the police, pedophiles will not reveal this sin to priests.

it's counter-productive: pedophiles no longer at least talking to priests about their problems will make them even worse offenders.

here's my solution: since it's debatable whether a priest can without absolution until a pedophile turns himself in, let's make it clear: place a latae sentantiae (automatic) interdict upon anyone who commits child abuse, an interdict that can only be lifted when one has turned oneself in (an interdict forbids one from receiving the sacraments, including absolution, except in danger of death). we have an automatic excommunication for those who procur abortions, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to single out a particular sin like that; we have already defined that sin, when done by a priest, as one of the gravia delecta (grave delicts, ie grave crimes) that are reserved to the CDF only, why not further legislate against it in canon law?

I understand people are mad at the way the Church handled things; but the fact is, the Church's failings were never about the confessional; the Church failed to respond when it heard things outside of the confessional. Diocesan offices make it very clear that there is a difference between the internal forum and the external forum, and no one in the Church talks about what has been said or done in the internal forum, because they are not allowed to. the internal forum might as well be the pedophile himself talking one-on-one with God, and this law would perport to try to bug the ear of God Himself. yes, we all want to fight seual abuse of children, but we not only SHOULD NOT try to bug the ear of God, we CANNOT bug the ear of God. nor can we bug the ear of the priest--priests only know things about the internal forum the way God knows them, they do not know them as men; therefore, if the police were to ask a priest if he had knowledge of some particular case of abuse, the correct answer would be NO, because the policeman asked the priest as a man, the policeman cannot question the priest of what he knows as God knows.

any law trying to break into the seal of the confessional is a moot letter: it's unenforceable, ineffective, and counterproductive. but if we pushed for the canon law of the Church to apply an interdict so that no child abuser was permitted to receive absolution unless they turned themself in, then we could ensure that the ONE and ONLY person that the pedophile MIGHT telll about his crimes was definitely trying to convince him to turn himself in. if the law were effective, it is likely the pedophile would only retreat deeper into his darkness and not tell ANYONE about what he has done.
[/quote]



I think this makes a lot of sense.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1310847953' post='2268296']
it's unenforcable except in the rare case that someone could prove they had confessed to the priest, unless we're going to take the word of pedophiles in order to convict priests of "failing to report".

it's ineffective: if priests are known to report to the police, pedophiles will not reveal this sin to priests.

it's counter-productive: pedophiles no longer at least talking to priests about their problems will make them even worse offenders.

here's my solution: since it's debatable whether a priest can without absolution until a pedophile turns himself in, let's make it clear: place a latae sentantiae (automatic) interdict upon anyone who commits child abuse, an interdict that can only be lifted when one has turned oneself in (an interdict forbids one from receiving the sacraments, including absolution, except in danger of death). we have an automatic excommunication for those who procur abortions, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to single out a particular sin like that; we have already defined that sin, when done by a priest, as one of the gravia delecta (grave delicts, ie grave crimes) that are reserved to the CDF only, why not further legislate against it in canon law?

I understand people are mad at the way the Church handled things; but the fact is, the Church's failings were never about the confessional; the Church failed to respond when it heard things outside of the confessional. Diocesan offices make it very clear that there is a difference between the internal forum and the external forum, and no one in the Church talks about what has been said or done in the internal forum, because they are not allowed to. the internal forum might as well be the pedophile himself talking one-on-one with God, and this law would perport to try to bug the ear of God Himself. yes, we all want to fight seual abuse of children, but we not only SHOULD NOT try to bug the ear of God, we CANNOT bug the ear of God. nor can we bug the ear of the priest--priests only know things about the internal forum the way God knows them, they do not know them as men; therefore, if the police were to ask a priest if he had knowledge of some particular case of abuse, the correct answer would be NO, because the policeman asked the priest as a man, the policeman cannot question the priest of what he knows as God knows.

any law trying to break into the seal of the confessional is a moot letter: it's unenforceable, ineffective, and counterproductive. but if we pushed for the canon law of the Church to apply an interdict so that no child abuser was permitted to receive absolution unless they turned themself in, then we could ensure that the ONE and ONLY person that the pedophile MIGHT telll about his crimes was definitely trying to convince him to turn himself in. if the law were effective, it is likely the pedophile would only retreat deeper into his darkness and not tell ANYONE about what he has done.
[/quote]

you are my hero.