Padre Pio

[jkaands]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1310650544' post='2267366']
I'm not sure what this is supposed to demonstrate to a non-believer or skeptic. Since Catholics are free and welcome to doubt or reject "[i]Padre Pio[/i]" and the alleged circumstances of his life. But some thoughts for consideration:

1) The reported visions and struggles seem similar to schizophrenia, making the presence of mental illness or disorder remotely possible. Which again doesn't change the alleged heroic virtue and charity of Padre Pio, since if true it would stand as a testament of what he overcame to accomplish those feats.

2) Stigmata is a strange and abnormal phenomena, since I will admit it cannot be well explained. Similar stigmata phenomena have been claimed in non-christian religions, in particular Buddhism where its depicted regularly in their icons and art. Some speculate that self-starvation, dissociative mental states, and self-mutilation could cause someone to inflict wounds onto themselves. Which curiously fasting, intensive prayer, and mortification was common in the cultures that stigmata cases appear. Presumably Padre Pio had similar practices. There have been also repeated false claims of stigmata, making it within the realm of possibility that someone would inflict it upon themselves.

The unusual placing of the stigmata, coupled with no damage to the bone, unusually smooth edges of the wounds, lack of edema, and lack of infection could be explained by carbolic acid. Before this time he claimed that there was a spiritual suffering and stigmata. Considering the conditions of his life, the remote possibility of mental illness or disorder, the pre-fascination with such devotion, and developing when he had access to carbolic acid ([i]which he requested be kept secret[/i]) seems suspicious.

3) Bilocation is an unverifiable and sketchy phenomena, which argumentatively could be explained better by the mental state of the person in question. Even reading across the stories presented here, no one else witnessed the bilocation or apparition, quickly came and left, with little or no evidence to support the claim.

4) The miraculous healing attributed to the intersession of Padre Pio is remarkable, though it falls into the same realm as any alleged miraculous healing. While abnormal it doesn't constitute proof of anything, other than something abnormal or unexplainable occurred, that is being attributed to some unverifiable phenomena.

Laudate_Dominum is correct in asserting that these are chiefly anecdotal claims, largely unsupported anecdotal claims. Correct again in asserting that these are extraordinary claims, which does warrant extraordinary evidence. Correct again that these are largely untestable in regards to the supernatural nature attributed to them.

BUT, the central point to be refuted is that this is all a straw-man argument and appeal to ignorance, both informal logic fallacies. Since the topic is pointed largely at atheists, whom either lack theistic belief or reject it, so presumably this is being submitted as evidence for a particular religious belief. Regardless if the alleged claims of Padre Pio are rejected or accepted, that doesn't demonstrate the lack or presence of a god in of itself. Lack of explanation for these phenomena doesn't confirm the claim the supernatural nature attributed to them.

Reading across this topic was very reminiscing to me, since when I was a Catholic I held great devotion and love for the Saints, I even had a personal litany that I used. I studied a lot into them, which now I feel was a waste of time, but even then it was easy to become skeptical or critical of supposed feats. Since legend is hard to verify and religious people tend to be well trained in accepting faith, not skepticism or critical analysis. Which is what this all comes down to...

Either one believes out of faith the supernatural nature of these alleged claims... or one doesn't. It doesn't demonstrate a god, or anything supernatural, to the non-believer or skeptic, as remarkable or fascinating as it is. But for those who want to believe, it certainly is an inspiration to the power of faith... and faith is powerful, regardless if there is a god or not.
[/quote]

I don't think that the study of the saints is a waste of time, Mr. C...saints are interesting. I recommend [b]John XXIII:Shepherd of the Modern World[/b] by Peter Hebblethwaite, available very cheaply thru amazon.

Stigmata are a well-established hysterical phenomenon, which has become rarer in modern times. There was a striking series on TV by Arthur C Clarke of unexplained mysteries, which I finally found as a VHS of a variety of stigmatics. One, a young black woman from Oakland CA who didn't want them; one an evangelical minister (female) who did, and Padre Pios, whose Capuchin congregation became rich on the basis on his. The dept of psychiatry at University of California San Francisco, one of the leading medical centers in the world, were able to cur the Oakland woman of hers.

The documentation of bilocation can't rely on what people report. This, too, is a very rare phenomenon these days. It would have to prove the [i]simultaneous[/i] appearance of persons who are also known not to be identical twins, and not made up at each other, ie. by using DNA testing to document that the two individuals are identical. Otherwise, it's anyone's say so.

Regarding miracles, the one miracle never recorded is the instant restoration of an amputated limb. Until then, once again, it's anyone's guess. In disease states, there are a lot of spontaneous remissions, as any doctor will tell you, and in the case of miracles there is usually little pre-miracle documentation, no documentation of the miracle by laboratory or biopsy confirmation, and no followup.

[Ash Wednesday]

Welp, I don't know if atheists buy into Padre Pio but even if they can get around Padre Pio or anything else, they can't get around death. None of us can, and we all find out so we better be ready when that day comes. Everyone have a nice day.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[jkaands]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1310661385' post='2267410']
Welp, I don't know if atheists buy into Padre Pio but even if they can get around Padre Pio or anything else, they can't get around death. None of us can, and we all find out so we better be ready when that day comes. Everyone have a nice day.
[/quote]

Ready--ready for what? Why abandon readon because of a fear of death? Or why not become a Protestant (gasp!) or a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu?

Oddly atheists aren't afraid of death and many believing Christians are. In a well-known medical study involving patients[i] dying of terminal cancer[/i] at the famous Dana Farber Cancer Center in Boston, those with religious beliefs wanted everything done to prolong their lives--intubation, ongoing chemotherapy, ICU, the works. Those that had no religious belief were much more willing to accept palliative care. They apparently had much less fear of death than believers.

Edited July 14, 2011 by jkaands

[Amppax]

nevermind

Edited July 14, 2011 by Amppax

[Aloysius]

[quote name='jkaands' timestamp='1310682562' post='2267507']
Ready--ready for what? Why abandon readon because of a fear of death? Or why not become a Protestant (gasp!) or a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu?

Oddly atheists aren't afraid of death and many believing Christians are. In a well-known medical study involving patients[i] dying of terminal cancer[/i] at the famous Dana Farber Cancer Center in Boston, those with religious beliefs wanted everything done to prolong their lives--intubation, ongoing chemotherapy, ICU, the works. Those that had no religious belief were much more willing to accept palliative care. They apparently had much less fear of death than believers.
[/quote]
most Christian religions have moral doctrines that require one to do as much as possible to prolong their life, within reason. put it this way: a Christian is more likely to wish to stay alive while suffering while an atheist is more likely to want to end the pain sooner. such a study could be interpretted that way.

anyway, of course I agree, one should not become religious solely out of a fear of death.

[Laudate_Dominum]

jkaands, this?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869298/"]Association between religious coping and use of intensive life-prolonging care near death among patients with advanced cancer[/url]

[url="http://www.economist.com/node/13315834?story_id=13315834"]Journalistic summary[/url]

What I see is religion as a source of hope and strength and irreligion as a possible occasion for despair and fatalism. I definitely don't see your fear claim. Did you read the study?

On a related topic, an irreligious doctor may be more likely to give up on you, as it were.

[url="http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2010/07/22/jme.2010.036194.short?q=w_jme_ahead_tab"]The role of doctors' religious faith and ethnicity in taking ethically controversial decisions during end-of-life care[/url]


I post the above only to contradict and chastise jkaands. Personally, I don't much care for these sort of survey-based studies and am reticent to dabble even in tentative interpretation. Still, jkaand's claim is contradicted rather than supported (assuming I've located the study he was alluding to).

I think it was a pointless, and fallacious jab that has nothing to do with Padre Pio. Flamebait?

edit: typo

Edited July 15, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1310661385' post='2267410']Welp, I don't know if atheists buy into Padre Pio but even if they can get around Padre Pio or anything else, they can't get around death. None of us can, and we all find out so we better be ready when that day comes. Everyone have a nice day.
[/quote][quote name='jkaands' timestamp='1310682562' post='2267507']
Ready--ready for what? Why abandon readon because of a fear of death? Or why not become a Protestant (gasp!) or a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu?

Oddly atheists aren't afraid of death and many believing Christians are. In a well-known medical study involving patients[i] dying of terminal cancer[/i] at the famous Dana Farber Cancer Center in Boston, those with religious beliefs wanted everything done to prolong their lives--intubation, ongoing chemotherapy, ICU, the works. Those that had no religious belief were much more willing to accept palliative care. They apparently had much less fear of death than believers.
[/quote][quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1310730547' post='2267693']jkaands, this?

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869298/"]Association between religious coping and use of intensive life-prolonging care near death among patients with advanced cancer[/url]

[url="http://www.economist.com/node/13315834?story_id=13315834"]Journalistic summary[/url]

What I see is religion as a source of hope and strength and irreligion as a possible occasion for despair and fatalism. I definitely don't see your fear claim. Did you read the study?

On a related topic, an irreligious doctor may be more likely to give up on you, as it were.

[url="http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2010/07/22/jme.2010.036194.short?q=w_jme_ahead_tab"]The role of doctors' religious faith and ethnicity in taking ethically controversial decisions during end-of-life care[/url]


I post the above only to contradict and chastise jkaands. Personally, I don't much care for these sort of survey-based studies and am reticent to dabble even in tentative interpretation. Still, jkaand's claim is contradicted rather than supported (assuming I've located the study he was alluding to).

I think it was a pointless, and fallacious jab that has nothing to do with Padre Pio. Flamebait?

edit: typo[/quote]Laudate_Dominum claims that religion provided a source of "[i]hope and strength[/i]" to continue life ([i]avoiding death[/i]), which doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death. Laudate_Dominum sourced two studies that non-religious patients and physicians are more likely to discuss and begin end of life procedures verses religious patients and physicians, which again doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death.

Religion does make a strong argument for an afterlife, and the fear of what unfaithfulness brings, so perhaps religious people do have more cause to be afraid.

I suspect Jkaand would admit this is their interpertation of the information. Jkaand's argument is not clearly contradicted, but perhaps not clearly supported. As the studies and surveys do not appear to directly examine fear of death. Jkaand was responding to Ash Wednesday, so while a little off topic from Padre Pio... pointless, fallacious, or flamebait it is not.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1310732787' post='2267695']
Laudate_Dominum claims that religion provided a source of "[i]hope and strength[/i]" to continue life ([i]avoiding death[/i]), which doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death. Laudate_Dominum sourced two studies that non-religious patients and physicians are more likely to discuss and begin end of life procedures verses religious patients and physicians, which again doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death.

Religion does make a strong argument for an afterlife, and the fear of what unfaithfulness brings, so perhaps religious people do have more cause to be afraid.

I suspect Jkaand would admit this is their interpertation of the information. Jkaand's argument is not clearly contradicted, but perhaps not clearly supported. As the studies and surveys do not appear to directly examine fear of death. Jkaand was responding to Ash Wednesday, so while a little off topic from Padre Pio... pointless, fallacious, or flamebait it is not.
[/quote]
Begone in the name of Budge. I don't respond to you. (I admit that I am hereby responding to you so no need to point out the obvious friend.)

Edited July 15, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1310733066' post='2267696']Go away. I don't respond to you.[/quote]Go away. I don't respond to you.[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1310733066' post='2267696']Begone in the name of Budge. I don't respond to you. (I admit that I am hereby responding to you so no need to point out the obvious friend.)[/quote]I was contributing to the topic as a whole, not to you. I recommend you ignore me.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1310732787' post='2267695']
Laudate_Dominum claims that religion provided a source of "[i]hope and strength[/i]" to continue life ([i]avoiding death[/i]), which doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death. [/quote]
I don't think you're getting it.

A person on the previous page said: "[i]Oddly atheists aren't afraid of death and many believing Christians are... They [atheists] apparently had much less fear of death than believers.[/i]" and alluded to a study as the basis of this claim. Assuming that the link I've provided is the study in question I'm simply pointing out that this is not true. The paper is about [u]positive religious coping[/u] and not fear of death. I don't claim to know which group of people generally experiences greater fear of death. I only claim that the study in question does not support the assertions made on the previous page.

As I indicated before, I don't really have a position on which group experiences a stronger fear of death (how the hell would I know?) and I actually think it is a stupid tangent to this thread.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1310732787' post='2267695']Laudate_Dominum sourced two studies that non-religious patients and physicians are more likely to discuss and begin end of life procedures verses religious patients and physicians, which again doesn't contradict the accusation that religious persons have a stronger fear of death.[/quote]
And by the way, the study says a lot more than that. But first, once again, the study isn't about fear of death and doesn't say anything directly about it, I don't expect that it would address and refute some asshat speculation about who is more prone to fear. My purpose was only to demonstrate that it doesn't support the claims made, which is important since that research was introduced as the basis of the claim in the first place. So yeah, it doesn't have to contradict a groundless claim, perhaps you don't understand burden of proof. (Incidentally, I think the paper does go against the fear claim but I'm really not interested in debating such a pointless topic, and certainly not with you.)

Religion provides many people with a sense of hope in hopelessness and a stronger will to live. This wasn't a groundless counter-claim of mine, I was actually just summarizing the bloody paper.

[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869298/"]Association between religious coping and use of intensive life-prolonging care near death among patients with advanced cancer[/url]



Now for some parody.

"Oddly white people aren't afraid of death and many black people are. In a well-known medical study involving patients dying of terminal cancer at the famous Dana Farber Cancer Center in Boston, those with dark skin wanted everything done to prolong their lives--intubation, ongoing chemotherapy, ICU, the works. Those that had white skin were much more willing to accept palliative care. They apparently had much less fear of death than blacks."


[url="http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/26/25/4131.full.pdf"]Racial and ethnic differences in advance care planning among patients with cancer: impact of terminal illness acknowledgment, religiousness, and treatment preferences.[/url]

[url="http://www.dana-farber.org/Newsroom/News-Releases/Black-patients-with-terminal-cancer-more-likely-to-choose-aggressive-care-at-end-of-life,-study-shows.aspx"]Black patients with terminal cancer more likely to choose aggressive care at end of life, study shows[/url]

Okay, maybe I went well beyond my claimed source in asserting that the disparity is explained by fear, but it doesn't contradict this idea!

"[i]In their initial interviews, black patients reported having a higher quality of life than their white counterparts and appeared [b]more at peace[/b], Trice said, which could be a factor in opting for a treatment plan aimed at extending life[/i]."

Oh well, I'm going to keep this absurd controversy alive at all costs until we have a complete downward spiral and the thread is closed. I'll win either way.

---

P.S. I don't really know what you're trying to do with the second half of your post.

"Religion does make a strong argument for an afterlife, and the fear of what unfaithfulness brings, so perhaps religious people do have more cause to be afraid."

Get real.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[rkwright]

L_D bringin the heat!

[quote]Oh well, I'm going to keep this absurd controversy alive at all costs until we have a complete downward spiral and the thread is closed. I'll win either way.[/quote]

strategy for the win

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1310743509' post='2267738']
L_D bringin the heat!



strategy for the win
[/quote]
And there's always plan B. I've got a Donk.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhWEYj2VSTc[/media]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufDTDUPZrag[/media]

So how 'bout Padre Pio? Cool stuff, right?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm tired of waiting for replies. I hereby accept defeat. Stop pwning me.

I'm stupid. You're smart. I was wrong. You were right. You're the best. I'm the worst. You're very good-looking. I'm not attractive.

[jkaands]

This discussion about end of life care vs. religious belief got started after Ash Wednesday implied that the fear of death might justify beilef in Padre Pio's phenomena.

[i]Welp(sic), I don't know if atheists buy into Padre Pio but even if they can get around Padre Pio or anything else, they can't get around death. None of us can, and we all find out so we better be ready when that day comes. Everyone have a nice day. [/i]

Here's the link to the article in question.(Thanks, laudate)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869298/

Here's the title:

[b]Association between religious coping and use of intensive life-prolonging care near death among patients with advanced cancer[/b]

Here's the [u][b]COMMENT [/b][/u]at the end. Sorry for the long quote, but it will spare readers having to read the entire paper or the body of literature leading up to it.

EOL means "end of life" Emphasis in bold is mine.
[b]
This study demonstrates that most advanced cancer patients rely on religion to cope with their illness and that greater use of positive religious coping is associated with the receipt of intensive life-prolonging medical care near death.[/b] This association was not attributable to other predictors of aggressive EOL care established in the literature, (28–30) and remained after controlling for advance care planning and other plausible psychosocial confounds. [b]These results suggest that relying upon religion to cope with terminal cancer may contribute to receiving aggressive medical care near death.[/b]

To our knowledge this is the first study to examine the influence of any religious factor on medical care received near death, and it is novel in demonstrating that positive religious coping is associated with actual receipt of aggressive EOL care. Positive religious coping was very commonly endorsed within our sample, consistent with other studies that demonstrate it to be the normative mode of religious coping within predominantly Christian patient samples (3, 4, 19 pargament 2004, anos). Adjusting for negative religious coping did not alter the association of positive religious coping with intensive life-prolonging care, suggesting that these findings might not be attributable to religious struggle at the EOL.

In the absence of preexisting outcome data, previous studies support an association of several religious measures and preference for medically aggressive EOL care.(1, 10, 31, 32) In a study of 68 ethnically diverse advanced cancer patients, belief in miracles, seeking guidance from God, and spiritual coping were associated with a preference for resuscitation, ventilation, and hospitalization in near-death scenarios. (10) In a study from the trauma literature, over half of the respondents believed that God could heal a critically injured patient even when the physician stated that medical futility had been reached (9).

Religious copers may choose medically aggressive therapies because they believe God could use the therapy to provide healing. Alternatively, patients may seek aggressive therapies because they hope that God might miraculously intervene while the patient’s life is being prolonged through intensive medical care.


Sullivan et al(31) found that religious cancer patients were less likely to understand the definition of a DNR order and were more likely to think a DNR order was morally wrong. Positive religious copers in the CwC sample were less likely than nonreligious copers to have a DNR order or other forms of advance care planning; however, these differences were largely attributable to the effect of race/ethnicity (analysis not presented). Indeed, lower rates of advance care planning did not mediate the relationship between positive religious coping and intensive life-prolonging care. The increased rate of intensive life-prolonging care among religious copers was also not mediated by baseline preference for aggressive care, suggesting a more complex relationship between religious coping and EOL care outcomes. Religious coping may influence medical decision-making rather than directly affecting treatment preferences or orientation toward care. Religious copers may decide to undergo therapies with high risks and uncertain benefits, because they trust that God could heal them through the proposed treatment.

Intrinsic to positive religious coping is the idea of collaborating with God to overcome illness and positive transformation through suffering. Sensing a religious purpose to suffering may enable patients to endure more invasive and painful therapy at the EOL. (11, 12 ) Alternatively, religious copers might feel they are abandoning a spiritual calling as they transition from “fighting cancer” to accepting the limitations of medicine and preparing for death. Religious patients might thus equate palliative care to “giving up on God [before he has] given up on them.”33 Qualitative studies commonly report spiritual reasons for preferring life-sustaining treatments, including a belief that only God knows a patient’s time to die. (11, 34, 35) Finally, high rates of intensive EOL care among religious copers may be attributable to religiously-informed moral positions that place high value on prolonging life.

Taken together, these results highlight the need for clinicians to recognize and be sensitive to the influence of religious coping on medical decisions and goals of care at the EOL. When appropriate, clinicians might include chaplains or other trained professionals (e.g., liason psychiatrists36 [cite Curlin]) to inquire about religious coping during ICU family meetings and EOL discussions occurring earlier in the disease course(37 (cite Alexi). [b]Because aggressive EOL cancer care has been associated with poor quality of death and caregiver bereavement adjustmentz937 [Alexi], intensive EOL care might represent a negative outcome for advanced cancer patients who rely on their religious faith to cope.[/b] These findings merit further discussion within religious communities, and consideration from those providing pastoral counsel to terminally ill cancer patients.

Clear associations are often elusive in religiousness/spirituality research because of the complex interactions between religious and other psychosocial factors38. Because the CwC study included comprehensive assessments of psychosocial measures, we were able to control for demographic confounds as well as more subtle potential explanatory effects. The effects of religious coping may have been confounded by other coping mechanisms; however, controlling for common non-religious coping styles did not alter its relationship with EOL care. Cancer patients with unrealistically optimistic expectations of survival prefer and receive more aggressive EOL care. (25, 30) We attempted to account for this by controlling for acknowledgement of terminal illness, which did not alter the relationship between religious coping and the primary outcome. Failure to address the spiritual needs of terminal cancer patients could conceivably contribute to spiritual crisis at the EOL, thereby leading to more aggressive care. Similarly, adjusting for support of spiritual needs did not alter the main findings. Research is needed to determine the mechanisms by which religious coping might influence EOL care preferences, decision making, and ultimate care outcomes.

Strengths of this study include ethnic and socioeconomic diversity among participants, use of validated surveys, and its prospective design. The brief RCOPE is a well-validated research tool that enabled empiric observations about a complex psychosocial construct. Nevertheless, clinicians should appreciate that the effects of religious coping are likely to be moderated by the environment and belief system from which they arise. Our findings should not be misinterpreted as denying the experience of many patients who find peaceful acceptance of death and pursue comfort-centered care because of their religious faith. Although religious coping is a theoretically appealing measure of functional religiousness, we cannot say that positive religious coping rather than other religious factors (e.g. religiously based morals) completely accounts for the associations observed. Given the observational nature of this study, other hidden confounds are possible. Because our study sample was predominantly Christian, the applicability of our findings to non-Christian populations is uncertain. Religious coping is common among patients with a variety of illnesses,2 but attitudes toward EOL care vary substantially across diagnoses with intensive EOL care being much more prevalent among non-cancer populations.(2, 29 ) Future studies are needed to determine the extent to which these findings apply to patients with other terminal illnesses.

Despite these limitations, [b]this study demonstrates that positive religious coping is associated with receipt of more intensive life-prolonging medical care at the EOL.[/b] These results suggest that clinicians should be attentive to religious methods of coping as they discuss prognosis and treatment options with terminally ill patients.

Several points: all of these patients are terminally ill with cancer. All were within a week from death. The doctors weren't giving up--they simply had no more to offer. The religious believers, mainly Christians, wanted everything done to forestall the inevitable, even at the cost of more suffering and vastly more expenditure. It is not appropriate for terminally ill cancer patients to die in an ICU. They should be receiving palliative care.

In addition, an article published last year in the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world, showed that palliative (as opposed to intensive) care not only improved the quality of life at the end, but also extended life!

[b]Early Palliative Care for Patients with Metastatic Non–Small-Cell Lung [/b]
N Engl J Med 2010; 363:733-742August 19, 2010

The cancer in question is one of the most common and untreatable in the world.




​