Predestination

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 26 2004, 11:17 PM'] thats the thing, if the Catholic Church were to come up with something different to what you just said that most catholics would agree with, they would no longer agree with me.

*sigh*

God bless. [/quote]

[Justified Saint]

But the fact is that the Church allows for different understandings (not necessarily contradictory) on this issue - why? Because whether or not you believe in unconditional election, election/reprobation before or after demerits/merits, limited atonement and whatever else - it doesn't have to be fully understood in order to know and celebrate the Gospel of Christ - Protestants on the other hand will find just about ANYTHING to bicker over, they have manged to create issues and conflicts amongst themselves with this topic and other ones (e.g. eschatology) and have made them into dividing issues. This is not a dividing topic for Catholics where the Protestant has to beat a confession out of the Bible to fit their already formulated doctrines on these issues.

[Hananiah]

I definitely lean towards unconditional election. I don't see how the idea that God comes to conclusions based on study and observation of His middle knowledge is compatible with the fact that He is omnicsient and therefore incapable of learning.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Hananiah

[the lumberjack]

could you say that again...but in normal people's english?

really, I don't get any of what you just posted...

and please clarify what you mean about "unconditional election"

God bless

[Hananiah]

Unconditional election: God chose which people He would save completely out of grace, not conditioning His decision on His foreknowledge of how they would behave.

Conditional election: God chose whom He would save based on His foreknowledge of how they would behave.

Middle knowledge: in Molinism (one of the Catholic theologies of predestination) God has what's called middle knowledge, which is a massive body of knowledge regarding how each human being will respond to God placed in any given situation and given X amount of grace. When He chose His elect, God looked at this middle knowledge and said, "well So and so will only respond to Our grace if We give him a ton of it and place him in an extraordinarily observant and holy Catholic family. If We place him in a regular situation he will choose sin. We're not going to save him. Ah, but We could place so and so #2 in a pagan society and all but starve him of grace and he would still seek Us out and find Us. We like this one, so We will save him."

In Thomism (other Catholic theology of predestination) there's no study of the middle knowledge. God just chose.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Hananiah

[the lumberjack]

thats the thing, if God chose who will be saved, then why even try to minister to anyone?

God KNOWS who will and who won't...that doesn't mean that He's MAKING it happen like this... if He is, then why isn't the whole world saved?

"So that none would perish"...right? then why are SOOO many CHOOSING the wide path to destruction.

Is God so cruel and evil that He would MAKE people choose hell?

no. God is just and loving, right? slow to anger...right? God is not making anyone get saved...but He does know who will choose Him and who won't.

[Katholish]

The Catholic Doctrine of Predestination must be clearly distinguished from the Calvanist or Jansenist doctrine of the same name.

The Catholic Church does not not hold that God wills antecedently and absolutely the salvation of some and the damnation of others.

(Antecedent will is directed toward the object qua (considered in and of) itself.
Consequent will is directed toward an object considered in its circumstances.)

The Catholic understanding can be stated as the eternal act of the Divine Will by which God wills to bring into His eternal glory those who do not persistantly and gravely resist His grace.

The reprobate are those whom God has resolved to exclude from His eternal glory those who gravely and persistantly resist His grace.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]The reprobate are those whom God has resolved to exclude from His eternal glory those who gravely and persistantly resist His grace.[/quote]

then why does the Bible say that God wants for none to be lost or suffer damnation?

"that ALL might be saved"???

according to what you just said, God is cruel and has condemned some people to hell...without even giving them a chance.

that is not the God I serve.

[Katholish]

God does not antecedently will the damnation of anyone. If you read the definition that I posted, it says "the reprobate are those whom God has resolved to exclude from His eternal glory who gravely and persistantly resist His grace." (I took out an extra "those" which was a typo). God does will the damnation of those who have resisted His grace gravely and persistantly, but that will is consequential. God only wills their damnation because they themselves have chosen not to be with God.

They had the chance but rejected it willfully.

[the lumberjack]

1. then what are you arguing? thats pretty much what I said.

2. don't use big words! you confuse simple people like me!

God bless

[CatholicCrusader2]

lumberjack,
You stated (twice):
[quote]Christ died that ALL would be saved...right?[/quote]
I think your problem with understand reasonableness of the Catholic position on this issue is that you don't exactly understand Our Lord's words. He Himself stated that the His Blood would be offered FOR MANY to the remission of sins (even though no currently "approved" vernacular translation states it in those words...). Our Lord knew, of course, that His Death covered all sins for the peoples of all times: past, present, and future; however, he also recognized the fact that many(most) would reject Him, as is clear today only 1/6 of the world (just over 1 billion people are Catholic). Therefore, no more than that many can merit eternal salvation (and we all know not all Catholics merit such). He knew that many would reject when He spoke these words at the first Mass, when He Himself created the world with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and when he suffered and died. If you understand this idea more firmly, you can probably better grasp the Catholic positions on predestination.

Per Mariam.

[the lumberjack]

so you're saying that Paul was a liar?

2Cor 5:14-19
[quote]14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 [b]And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.[/b] 

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 

17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 

18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, [b]reconciling the world unto himself,[/b] not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.[/quote]

this is just what I read in my Bible...that Christ died for ALL. now unless ALL has a different meaning in Greek...all is all...everyone...all of them...the whole enchilada.

God bless.

[CatholicCrusader2]

[quote]this is just what I read in my Bible...that Christ died for ALL. now unless ALL has a different meaning in Greek...all is all...everyone...all of them...the whole enchilada.[/quote]

Funny you should bring that up...first, all DOES have a meaning that signifies MANY, not ALL. (c.f. "All have sinned..." Rom.) Further, I didn't say anything about what St. Paul said. I said that [i]Our Lord said at the first Mass[/i] (Last Supper) that His Blood would be shed "for many" ([i]pro multis[/i], in the Vulgate).

St. Matthew XXVI. 28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed [b]for many[/b] unto remission of sins."

St. Mark XIV. 24, "And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed [b]for many[/b]."

St. Luke XXII. 20, "In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you."
St. Luke makes no mention of "for all" (neither does he mention "for many," only recognizing "for you," the Apostles).

Per Mariam.

[Katholish]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 28 2004, 05:12 PM'] 1. then what are you arguing? thats pretty much what I said.

2. don't use big words! you confuse simple people like me!

God bless [/quote]
I wasn't necessarily posting in response to you, but for the topic in general. Sometimes big words are necessary to make the proper distinction, like consubstantial for the Trinity.

[p0lar_bear]

I don't really have a fully developed theory of predestination to present.

However, a Catholic understanding must include, among other things, a recognition that man has free will to choose God or not-God.

Also, Traditional, the word "many" in Scripture is sometimes used to mean "all". E.g. Romans 5 "for as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..." This does not debunk the doctrine of Original Sin because we recognize that "many" is not used in a sense that means "not all."