An Honest And Civil Discussion On The Modesty & Bikinis

[Adrestia]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1310384616' post='2265696']
I agree that attitude and intention is important, and I wouldn't necessarily claim the woman herself wearing a bikini is immodest (unless she was acting immodest) ... but I think the objective clothing piece itself is immodest. See the difference? I don't think there is ever a time a bikini itself is a modest piece of clothing -- but I could understand a woman who doesn't know any better not being an immodest woman while wearing one. And I don't mean it to be about semantics, either - I think it's an important distinction.
[/quote]

I guess I see what you mean. I never thought of it that way because I have always considered modesty to be an attribute of a person or people, not inanimate objects.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310349772' post='2265536']
ain't nuthin' sexier on a guy than a plain white tee-shirt and blue jeans.


ahem.
[/quote]

if you say so....

[img]http://whyaremensodumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mullet.jpg[/img]
[img]http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/muffin-top1.jpg[/img]

[Ash Wednesday]

Epic mullet...muffin top...tramp stamp.... all rounded out and followed up with a nice, eloquent Latin prayer. I've seen it all.

[Lil Red]

[Mary Magdalene]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1310415418' post='2265859']
Epic mullet...muffin top...tramp stamp.... all rounded out and followed up with a nice, eloquent Latin prayer. I've seen it all.
[/quote]


very attractive...

[ImageTrinity]

The problem is, modesty is subjective. My husband, for instance, loves it when I wear a wet suit that covers almost every inch of skin. :blush:That's his taste. I can't say I really understand why a one piece that covers 3 inches of mid riff is that much more modest than a bikini that shows your belly button. Even a two-piece swim suit with a skirt would be inappropriate anywhere but the beach or the pool. I think your attitude and the way you carry yourself have a lot more to do with modesty than the particulars of what you are wearing. Modesty is a virtue that inspires us to treasure our own dignity and the dignity of others as children made in the image and likeness of God--it's not a particular style of dress.

[quote][b]CCC 2524[/b] The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person. [/quote]

[ImageTrinity]

[quote]Also, I would be interested in furthering the discussion on cultural norms that you mentioned, Maggie - here's a discussion point I have on that: when Josemaria Escriva had members of Opus Dei go into certain tribal areas in Africa, they told the natives to wear shoes. Not because wearing shoes was WRONG, but that they were called to [i]elevate the culture,[/i] (as we all are - that was a common phrase in religious life for us: "elevate the conversation") and weaitring shoes was more elevated than always going barefoot. Others might roll their eyes or be angry about that - but I think that is a good thing. Just like I think I would have encouraged a topless woman from that particular tribe to wear clothing. For her, not wearing a shirt isn't wrong per se. But I'd appeal to the Catechism on that, especially if she was at a papal Mass (where I'm sure others outside of their culture were attending): we should cover "what should remain hidden" and be reserved "where there is a risk of unhealthy curiosity." Then again, even the Catechism states: "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another." I'd love to further discussion on this aspect![/quote]

My brother in-law is from an African country where the cultural norm is for women to go topless. Everything from the waist to the ankles is completely covered, however. From their perspective, breasts serve the sole purpose of feeding children, so there is nothing to hide. On the other hand, what a nice Catholic girl might wear in the US--a mid-calf length skirt--is skimpy and scandalous by their standards. I'm not sure we should try to impose our standards--especially the Western obsession with breasts--on other cultures. How many paintings and icons of Our Lady depict her with one or both breasts fully exposed while she feeds the Christ Child?

[Papist]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1310412154' post='2265841']
[img]http://whyaremensodumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mullet.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Whoa! Jean shorts!

[Totus Tuus]

I'll start by saying that I only read the first half of the first post in this thread, and haven't read any of the discussion or debate that has taken place. I just want to add what I have learned in my experience.

I used to be really confused as to why girls made the decision to wear bikinis when they seem to me to be so immodest. But after a few years in college and some arguments with the school of hard knocks, I've learned that almost every Catholic girl I know who wears one 1. doesn't really debate with herself about whether or not to wear one, because 2. it's just what she was raised with and what's acceptable around her.

A long time ago, I used to think that it was a conscious thing that girls did to purposely turn guys on. Now I realize that that is rarely ever the case, and if it is, it's often because they don't genuinely understand the problem with dressing in a way that might lead guys down that road.

I know very, very few girls (but I do know some) who dress that way, how should I say it, deliberately? Sometimes having a beautiful body works to their disadvantage because they're so desperate for love and attention that putting on a bikini is one of the only things they can do to feel wanted.

Anyway, like I said, I don't know where this debate is at, but I wanted to add my experience when it comes to growing in understanding of where most Catholic bikini-wearers are coming form.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1310501268' post='2266484']
I'll start by saying that I only read the first half of the first post in this thread, and haven't read any of the discussion or debate that has taken place. I just want to add what I have learned in my experience.

I used to be really confused as to why girls made the decision to wear bikinis when they seem to me to be so immodest. But after a few years in college and some arguments with the school of hard knocks, I've learned that almost every Catholic girl I know who wears one 1. doesn't really debate with herself about whether or not to wear one, because 2. it's just what she was raised with and what's acceptable around her.

A long time ago, I used to think that it was a conscious thing that girls did to purposely turn guys on. Now I realize that that is rarely ever the case, and if it is, it's often because they don't genuinely understand the problem with dressing in a way that might lead guys down that road.

I know very, very few girls (but I do know some) who dress that way, how should I say it, deliberately? Sometimes having a beautiful body works to their disadvantage because they're so desperate for love and attention that putting on a bikini is one of the only things they can do to feel wanted.

Anyway, like I said, I don't know where this debate is at, but I wanted to add my experience when it comes to growing in understanding of where most Catholic bikini-wearers are coming form.
[/quote]

amesome, +100. This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

[Cherie]

[quote name='ImageTrinity' timestamp='1310495402' post='2266411']
I'm not sure we should try to impose our standards--especially the Western obsession with breasts--on other cultures. How many paintings and icons of Our Lady depict her with one or both breasts fully exposed while she feeds the Christ Child?
[/quote]

The whole "breast issue" drives me nuts. With crazy pornographically-minded women getting cup K+++ implants, our Western culture has made breasts completely about sex, which is utterly ridiculous. That's why you have people up in arms when a woman feeds her child in public - how twisted and wrong!

I understand cultural differences abound, but in our culture specifically, where does it end? This is for everyone, if you want to continue the discussion: Do you think it's inevitable we get to the point where a bikini IS considered modest? And I'm not particularly condemning the women themselves, because many women don't understand the modesty issue behind wearing one, it's just the "norm" that's why they wear it -- but I just can't imagine that God would be pleased with that sort of clothing, whether or not the woman even realizes that (because like it was mentioned before, many women don't). It is true that Our Lady predicted there would be many styles of clothing that offend Our Lord -- and I know it's not all about specifics, but I think there has to be a point where you can say definitively NO, that's not a modest piece of clothing. I'm usually not very critical of people's (especially women's) clothing choices; for example, I won't get all up in arms about a bride's strapless wedding dress, though I'd never wear one myself and I personally don't think they're modest ... in regard to specific clothing choices, there are a lot of personal opinions and preferences, and that's ok. Modesty isn't just about clothing standards, as we've mentioned. But certain things are worth mentioning, if only to make people think about the issue and discover the virtue itself, and a bikini just seems to me to be that kind of thing.