An Honest And Civil Discussion On The Modesty & Bikinis

[Era Might]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?
[/quote]
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen. Men go to the beach because they want to see women (and the younger men usually want to show themselves off too).

The only people who wear bikinis for swimming purposes are men. Although technically I guess it's not a "bikini" but a swimming speedo. Those things should be phased out like 1980s basketball shorts.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Era Might

[Cherie]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1310305541' post='2265288']
I hate to sound like a cultural relativist but that is one of my problems with St. Josemaria, that his wonderful organization unfortunately has some "colonial" attitudes toward the people they are evangelizing, instead of wondering hmmm I wonder what we can learn from these people, yes we can give them the Gospel but do they have gifts they can give us? Just the assumption that oh yes, we wear shoes so that's what's best and everyone should wear them to strive to reach our level of elevation. As opposed to (IMO) more genuine efforts to elevate the culture like teaching Christian respect for women and alternatives to the domestic and sexual violence common in these countries.
[/quote]

That's a good point, and I think it depends on your views about that. I'm not a cultural relativist, but I'm not a colonialist either - I think the "middle ground" is more appropriate. The "shoe thing" appealed to me because of my time in religious life, where we were constantly trying to elevate the culture, most especially by conversation. And it wasn't because the conversation was [i]wrong,[/i] we were simply supposed to elevate it because that's the better thing (there's bad, there's good, there's better, and there's best). For example, a long conversation about food was not encouraged. Is talking about food wrong? No, but it's a rather base topic of conversation (unless you're a chef I guess). (Actually I think St. Francis de Sales talks somewhere about how food is a base topic of conversation - I know St. Alphonsus Liguori does, too). We were encouraged to gear conversations like that more toward loftier subjects - not necessarily only and always about God, but about more intelligent topics (instead of constant opinions: "I like this" or "I like that" ... it's so geared towards selfishness!)

Anyway, I do think there is value in things like that. I don't think it's right to go in and change a culture completely or try and make it conform to another so-called "better" culture -- but I think some things are worth considering and introducing to those cultures, like shoes and tops. (And even if there is a movement for runners to go barefoot, that's fine - there are certainly times when going barefoot is acceptable or better than wearing shoes, like in my house -- please do not wear your shoes in my house! And for babies, they should learn to walk barefoot rather than in shoes.) I think some people with a "cultural relativist" mindset would also be against going in to a culture and teaching them about Christ. But the "middle ground" question about introducing a culture to new things (like shoes and shirts) is: how much is too much?

In my opinion, I've witnessed Christians around me and I think they get bogged down by the things of the world and look at efforts like that as ridiculous. ("Why should it matter what I wear? Why should it matter what I talk about? I'm not running around naked or swearing like a sailor!") But I'm of the opinion we have a higher calling. If becoming a Saint means I need to work on elevating my conversation or being more modest, however difficult or annoying or tiresome it may be, I'm willing to do it. I think especially in today's culture we're called to be outside the cultural norms ("counter-cultural"). No, we're not supposed to be so separated from the culture that we look odd (for example the Amish way of dealing with modern culture is just that - they are proud of the fact they're considered "odd" by outsiders) ... but remember, we ARE called to be "counter-cultural". That was one of the first things I learned in my Catholic school as a kid - I remember they illustrated it with a fish swimming against the current where all the other fish were swimming with it.

Anyway I could go on forever - it was a topic much discussed when I was in religious life and something I enjoy discussing. But I'm getting a little off topic, I think. Maybe I should start another thread, haha

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310307302' post='2265292']
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen.[/quote]

And to tan.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310307302' post='2265292']
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen. Men go to the beach because they want to see women (and the younger men usually want to show themselves off too).

The only people who wear bikinis for swimming purposes are men. Although technically I guess it's not a "bikini" but a swimming speedo. Those things should be phased out like 1980s basketball shorts.
[/quote]

I spent one summer doing research at a university in Boston during my college years. One weekend I participated in a trip to a nearby beach. A very nice young lady asked me why I wanted to go. She didn't understand why Black people go to the beach when we are already tan.

I'm from the Caribbean, and I now live in a beach town / vacation destination along the Gulf Coast of the US. People come to the beach to swim, to surf, to play in the sand, and for myriad other reasons do not involve wanting attention.

Bikinis are also worn for convenience - taking off a one piece to use the bathroom is work! Who here has used a public bathroom at a beach? Trust me when I say that a two-piece is the way to go.

Not all two-piece swimsuits are skimpy, but around here the skimpy ones are not uncommon. Women of all sizes and shapes wear them. Truth is, they are easier to fit and they are more adjustable. The ultra-conservative swimsuits are more expensive and only fit that specific size and shape woman. If a lady were to gain or lose weight, she would have to buy another swimsuit. So don't paint all bikini wearing women as seductive temptresses. Some are just regular ladies who grew up around this and find it normal.

[Era Might]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310311868' post='2265304']People come to the beach to swim, to surf, to play in the sand, and for myriad other reasons do not involve wanting attention.[/quote]
I was half joking. Of course not literally everyone is at the beach for show and tell. But that is part of the beach culture.

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310311868' post='2265304']So don't paint all bikini wearing women as seductive temptresses. Some are just regular ladies who grew up around this and find it normal.
[/quote]
I did not call anyone a "seductive temptress." That would imply that the men are somehow "prey." The men know exactly what's going on. They want to see women. They are not helpless bystanders.

Women showing off their bodies is, as you say, considered normal. Not just at the beach, out in public. I've seen ladies wearing some pretty crazy stuff (not even at the beach, just out in public). Nobody wears those kinds of clothes unless they want people to see them. That doesn't necessarily make them "seductive temptresses." You're from the Caribbean, you may be familiar with "Carnival" type parties, where many women in the parade are dressed rather scantily. Same with cheerleaders, female bartenders, whatever. It is considered normal for women to show off their bodies, and for men to watch. Beach wear is part of that culture.

Go to the beach, look around, and tell me that the scantily clad women there don't want to be seen. I don't buy it. I never called them "seductive temptresses," but swimming is hardly the first consideration for beach wear.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Era Might

[regina_coeli]

Random thoughts from someone who loves the water, has fair Celtic skin that burns fast, and just returned from a beach trip--

competitive swim suits are all about reducing drag. remember the coverall suits of the last olympics? not your 1990's speedo any more!
competitive women's suits have always had high necks that would make CM comfortable
check out Lands End-- they have lots of swim skirts and shorts, and everything is on sale now ( and a two piece is way easier in the "facilities")
at the beach many babies and toddlers wore shorts and shirts combos-- to prevent sunburn! fashionable but very modest. saw quite a few middle school children with the combos as well
women in tropical counties who are topless are usually nursing babies 24/7. this is a healthy way of spacing children in environments where nutrition is not the best. only westerners think of this as provocative

I think masses of bikinis become mind numbing, but worry about the growing skin cancer rates!

[dominicansoul]

The Blessed Virgin Mary told the children at Fatima that there would be many "styles" that would offend God very much. I shudder to think that any woman would find wearing two strings barely covering her breast and bum as "normal." But since that is the case, Our Lady's words are very prophetic...

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310313852' post='2265311']
I was half joking. Of course not literally everyone is at the beach for show and tell. But that is part of the beach culture.


I did not call anyone a "seductive temptress." That would imply that the men are somehow "prey." The men know exactly what's going on. They want to see women. They are not helpless bystanders.

Women showing off their bodies is, as you say, considered normal. Not just at the beach, out in public. I've seen ladies wearing some pretty crazy stuff (not even at the beach, just out in public). Nobody wears those kinds of clothes unless they want people to see them. That doesn't necessarily make them "seductive temptresses." You're from the Caribbean, you may be familiar with "Carnival" type parties, where many women in the parade are dressed rather scantily. Same with cheerleaders, female bartenders, whatever. It is considered normal for women to show off their bodies, and for men to watch. Beach wear is part of that culture.[/quote]

There are also many women who do not wear skimpy outfits anywhere except the beach. They're not competitive swimmers, they're at the beach to relax and enjoy the water. The beach here has dangerous rip currents and sometimes rough surf, so they mostly just splash around or play with their kids in the water anyway.

Personally, I can't stand carnival or reggae sunsplash or any other excuse people use to act a fool when in the Caribbean.

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310313852' post='2265311']Go to the beach, look around, and tell me that the scantily clad women there don't want to be seen. I don't buy it. I never called them "seductive temptresses," but swimming is hardly the first consideration for beach wear.
[/quote]

I live here. Maybe if you saw the women that frequent our beach you would understand my point of view. Or maybe I misunderstand yours. When I hear that a women is dressing in skimpy attire to be seen, I assume that the woman in question has a slender or athletic figure. I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.

[Cherie]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310320978' post='2265349']
I live here. Maybe if you saw the women that frequent our beach you would understand my point of view. Or maybe I misunderstand yours. When I hear that a women is dressing in skimpy attire to be seen, I assume that the woman in question has a slender or athletic figure. I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.
[/quote]

The point for me is, though, even if they're NOT wearing it "to attract attention," I still think it is not considered modest attire and shouldn't be worn. I guess that's my point here - because people can dress in "modest" clothing but have an immodest attitude when wearing it, and that is just as wrong, too. I definitely don't think it's "just about the clothing," I think modesty covers a much wider sphere than that. That being said, however, I do think there are objective standards, no matter what your attitude or intention may be, and I don't think bikinis fall within that standard. Do you?

[MissyP89]

[quote]I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.[/quote]

This made me think. If you are the average American, non-churchgoing woman, you probably just go to Penney's or Macy's or whatever and buy a two-piece in a color you like. My best friend is a tomboy, hates her body, yet wears a bikini top with shorts.

As a woman, there's not really a sense of "Oh, if I wear this guys will look at me," when shopping for swimsuits. You might find that attitude with dresses for a wedding or prom, but with the beach, so many people just default to bikinis because they're so prevalent.

[Era Might]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310320978' post='2265349']I live here. Maybe if you saw the women that frequent our beach you would understand my point of view. Or maybe I misunderstand yours. When I hear that a women is dressing in skimpy attire to be seen, I assume that the woman in question has a slender or athletic figure. I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.
[/quote]
Well, it could depend on the beach. I'm in South Florida, beach capital of the country, so it might be a different atmosphere than some random beach in the north.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='XIX' timestamp='1310247450' post='2265077']
Wearing a shirt is probably a good idea. Modesty, avoid sunburn (and skin cancer!!), and you don't have to worry about losing your scapular in the water.
[/quote]

Good one, its good to keep in mind not losing your Scapular.

I would have said twenty years ago that men without a shirt at a beach would be no different than men working in the garden or shoveling blacktop without a shirt to escape the heat. These days it seems that many women are as sexualized as men, I mean to say that women are becoming more the instigators in sexual situations. There is hardly a place where youth get together such as a club or bar that there is not women on the prowl for men or other women even, so I guess that in this environment it would be more modest for men to wear swim shirts. I would assume causing someone to sin would be as bad as sinning yourself, especially if done with intention.

Lol, I had two images of old mens swimwear I was going to post here, but it said I am "not allowed to use that image extension on this board" these were the swimsuits from the twenties, one was red and white stripes like wheres Waldo cartoon, and the other was an old Coney Island lifeguard.

Fashionable, modest and would cut down on the skin cancers too.

ed

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1310272971' post='2265198']
It's made very well. It's by Maxine of Hollywood. It's very comfortable to wear and slenderizing.
[/quote]


I must admit this made me smile. If we are talking about what is modest, what does and doesn't potentially lead to impure thoughts in ourselves or others, then a figure-improving swimdress could be percieved as less modest than a sporty bikini with a pot belly hanging over the bottoms - I certainly know which is more asthetically pleasing to me.

[4588686]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']
reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.
[/quote]

Yep. Somehow I can avoid gawking at attractive women at the pool when I go swimming and I'm not even religious. I don't see how all these pious Catholic men can be struggling with lust to such an extent unless they're so sexually repressed that any ammount of a woman's flesh just sends them into a frenzy.

Here's an easy solution. If you're tempted by a woman then pull a Qur'an and 'lower your gaze'. If that doesn't work then jump in the cold pool water. I'm sure that will cool you down. If a woman wants to wear that wet suit like thing that Lillabettt links then that's great. But I'm sick of guys here and elsewhere emotionally blackmailing women by making them feel like they have to cover ever inch of flesh they have on the beach or else they're going to lead their brothers in Christ into mortal sin.

Just be a man and deal with your poo yourself. If you can't go to the beach without acting like a horny 14 year old boy and being set aflame by every bit of feminine flesh your gaze falls upon then just do everyone a favor and stay home.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Hasan

[4588686]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310307302' post='2265292']
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen. Men go to the beach because they want to see women (and the younger men usually want to show themselves off too).

The only people who wear bikinis for swimming purposes are men. Although technically I guess it's not a "bikini" but a swimming speedo. Those things should be phased out like 1980s basketball shorts.
[/quote]

And to tan. And to be cool. Most people at the pool don't swim for exercise. They just splash around. A bikini works fine for that.