An Honest And Civil Discussion On The Modesty & Bikinis

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1310274740' post='2265218']
Red...that link doesn't work. If you click it and then read the URL really closely, you'll notice it says "blue coagulated milk sauce." The fil-ter messed it up! ::

I think I almost peed my pantaloons laughing.
[/quote]
peed your pantaloons, hmmm????

[BG45]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1310273683' post='2265205']
The word slenderizing reminds me of "tenderizing." I am now picturing a steak.

#latenightthoughts
[/quote]

Why are you Twitter hashtagging a PM post?

[MissyP89]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1310275055' post='2265224']
Why are you Twitter hashtagging a PM post?
[/quote]

Because I can.

[BG45]

Okies. Makes sense.

[Jesus_lol]

reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.

[MissyP89]

Jlawl, you're the best. After being on here for years and listening to men talk about how they struggle with lust for even modest women, it [i]makes[/i] a girl a little paranoid that everyone is thinking about her. *shudder*

Maybe that's why I disappeared from here for a long time. (Hope this finds you well, btw!)

[BG45]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']
reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.
[/quote]

I don't think of ravenous succubi, I think of the fact I'm fat and no one wants to see my body.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']
reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.
[/quote]

I think as pps have said, it is somewhat of an (over?) reaction to the dominant cultural forces at work, which are all about objectifying the body and degrading sexuality. If you are the slightest bit concerned with being modest in this culture, the status quo can be so revolting it's tempting to swing way too far in the opposite direction. I think it's important to keep in mind context, too - yes these are clothes you wouldn't wear in public for just walking around, but they're swimwear, not everyday clothes! Pretty much from the beginning, women's swimming clothes have different greatly in modesty and style from their street clothing. We wear different clothes in different contexts.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1310277615' post='2265244']
Jlawl, you're the best. After being on here for years and listening to men talk about how they struggle with lust for even modest women, it [i]makes[/i] a girl a little paranoid that everyone is thinking about her. *shudder*

Maybe that's why I disappeared from here for a long time. (Hope this finds you well, btw!)
[/quote]

well, if it would make you feel better i would say that no dude lusts after ya, but that is both insulting (lol) and probably not true(hehe)

finds me well enough. just sitting here in my shorts, currently not being mounted by 30 half crazed she-lions.

maybe i need to buy a different set of shorts


[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1310277742' post='2265245']
I don't think of ravenous succubi, I think of the fact I'm fat and no one wants to see my body.
[/quote]

Just wait until you win all the Cannonball and bellyflop contests, Girls love a winner.

you are gonna have to beat them away from your welted skin with a stick

[BG45]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310278289' post='2265250']

Just wait until you win all the Cannonball and bellyflop contests, Girls love a winner.

you are gonna have to beat them away from your welted skin with a stick
[/quote]

Somehow I doubt that LOL. Though my cannonball is pretty good!

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1310278228' post='2265249']
We wear different clothes in different contexts.
[/quote]


Thats what i told them when i wore my slinky red dress to work!

"but i only wear jeans at home!" i said, but i still got escorted off the premises

Edited July 10, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310278402' post='2265252']
Thats what i told them when i wore my slinky red dress to work!
[/quote]

HOLY COW. AFTER HOURS AT PHATMASS JUST GOT CRAY CRAY.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310274636' post='2265216']
thanks Missy.

just for that?
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3883382922_161fa35504.jpg[/img]

link doesn't work because of the philter. google pioneer woman and grilled ribeye steak with onion blue che[i][/i]ese.


website?
[/quote]

I got mine at a regional store, but it is available online.

[url="http://www.swimoutlet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=22750&Click=205964"]Maxine of Hollywood Elegant Touch Empire Swimdress[/url]

The one offered is a plus-size dress, but they have others on their website from Maxine of Hollywood.

[Cherie]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1310279656' post='2265261']
I got mine at a regional store, but it is available online.

[url="http://www.swimoutlet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=22750&Click=205964"]Maxine of Hollywood Elegant Touch Empire Swimdress[/url]

The one offered is a plus-size dress, but they have others on their website from Maxine of Hollywood.
[/quote]

For me, I like swimdresses. I think they're fine but the one problem I have with the one you link to is that I could [i]never[/i] wear it because it comes too low. That's a problem with a lot of swimsuits - that one, honestly, while it might not be considered immodest for others would definitely be immodest for me.

Something like this goes up pretty high but I would like that:
[img]http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/Product/icon/980.jpg[/img]

Or this might work:

[img]http://blissfullydomestic.com/wp-content/uploads/not-your-grandmas-swim-dress-221x300.jpg[/img]

And I know other people might think ... but I *LOVE* this one (but it's waay to expensive, even on sale):

[img]http://modestsea.com/files/products/ModerateCover/evafront.jpg[/img]


I thank everyone for their opinions! I especially thank LuxChristi for the references to the Catechism! That will definitely be something I turn to now when I have discussions with others about modesty, and I'm literally going to memorize some of those passages.

But I guess I still don't see the answer to my question, really -- morally speaking, how can one defend a bikini specifically?

Yes, swimwear is different than "everyday clothes", and that's why there are things I'd wear to a pool or a beach that I'd never wear anywhere else. And that's ok - but I don't think a bikini is ever ok.


Also, I would be interested in furthering the discussion on cultural norms that you mentioned, Maggie - here's a discussion point I have on that: when Josemaria Escriva had members of Opus Dei go into certain tribal areas in Africa, they told the natives to wear shoes. Not because wearing shoes was WRONG, but that they were called to [i]elevate the culture,[/i] (as we all are - that was a common phrase in religious life for us: "elevate the conversation") and weaitring shoes was more elevated than always going barefoot. Others might roll their eyes or be angry about that - but I think that is a good thing. Just like I think I would have encouraged a topless woman from that particular tribe to wear clothing. For her, not wearing a shirt isn't wrong per se. But I'd appeal to the Catechism on that, especially if she was at a papal Mass (where I'm sure others outside of their culture were attending): we should cover "what should remain hidden" and be reserved "where there is a risk of unhealthy curiosity." Then again, even the Catechism states: "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another." I'd love to further discussion on this aspect!


Also, although "modesty of heart" is necessary just as much as modesty of clothing, I think the answer to immodesty [i]can be[/i] to put on more clothes. Like with the bikini - I think those women should put on more clothes. And while discussion on modesty can definitely spiral down into the Puritanical (and I think many have Puritanical views on modesty) I don't think that aspect is, because sometimes people [i]should[/i] put on more clothes!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1310301304' post='2265274']
For me, I like swimdresses. I think they're fine but the one problem I have with the one you link to is that I could [i]never[/i] wear it because it comes too low. That's a problem with a lot of swimsuits - that one, honestly, while it might not be considered immodest for others would definitely be immodest for me.

Something like this goes up pretty high but I would like that:
[img]http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/Product/icon/980.jpg[/img]

Or this might work:

[img]http://blissfullydomestic.com/wp-content/uploads/not-your-grandmas-swim-dress-221x300.jpg[/img]

And I know other people might think ... but I *LOVE* this one (but it's waay to expensive, even on sale):

[img]http://modestsea.com/files/products/ModerateCover/evafront.jpg[/img]


I thank everyone for their opinions! I especially thank LuxChristi for the references to the Catechism! That will definitely be something I turn to now when I have discussions with others about modesty, and I'm literally going to memorize some of those passages.

But I guess I still don't see the answer to my question, really -- morally speaking, how can one defend a bikini specifically?

Yes, swimwear is different than "everyday clothes", and that's why there are things I'd wear to a pool or a beach that I'd never wear anywhere else. And that's ok - but I don't think a bikini is ever ok.


Also, I would be interested in furthering the discussion on cultural norms that you mentioned, Maggie - here's a discussion point I have on that: when Josemaria Escriva had members of Opus Dei go into certain tribal areas in Africa, they told the natives to wear shoes. Not because wearing shoes was WRONG, but that they were called to [i]elevate the culture,[/i] (as we all are - that was a common phrase in religious life for us: "elevate the conversation") and weaitring shoes was more elevated than always going barefoot. Others might roll their eyes or be angry about that - but I think that is a good thing. Just like I think I would have encouraged a topless woman from that particular tribe to wear clothing. For her, not wearing a shirt isn't wrong per se. But I'd appeal to the Catechism on that, especially if she was at a papal Mass (where I'm sure others outside of their culture were attending): we should cover "what should remain hidden" and be reserved "where there is a risk of unhealthy curiosity." Then again, even the Catechism states: "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another." I'd love to further discussion on this aspect!


Also, although "modesty of heart" is necessary just as much as modesty of clothing, I think the answer to immodesty [i]can be[/i] to put on more clothes. Like with the bikini - I think those women should put on more clothes. And while discussion on modesty can definitely spiral down into the Puritanical (and I think many have Puritanical views on modesty) I don't think that aspect is, because sometimes people [i]should[/i] put on more clothes!
[/quote]

I think MOST people should definitely be putting more regular clothes back on! At a certain point when standards have sunk so low. it's hard to say whether there are standards anymore at all I think modesty is a very subjective thing, and on some women perhaps a bikini could be considered modest (if she was swimming and not just laying out on the beach). There are different levels within that, too; there are two-pieces that offer a lot of coverage and then there are string bikinis which in our culture are obviously completely inappropriate in public.

The shoes part is interesting to me, the ironic thing is that currently there is a mini-movement among runners to go back to running barefoot! Apparently all these studies are coming out showing that Western athletic shoes are terrible for your feet and make people more prone to injury. The shoe industry is even coming out with "barely there" shoes - Nike has the Nike Free shoe - that are supposed to mimic the barefoot experience. I hate to sound like a cultural relativist but that is one of my problems with St. Josemaria, that his wonderful organization unfortunately has some "colonial" attitudes toward the people they are evangelizing, instead of wondering hmmm I wonder what we can learn from these people, yes we can give them the Gospel but do they have gifts they can give us? Just the assumption that oh yes, we wear shoes so that's what's best and everyone should wear them to strive to reach our level of elevation. As opposed to (IMO) more genuine efforts to elevate the culture like teaching Christian respect for women and alternatives to the domestic and sexual violence common in these countries.