Vatican Reminder: Sspx Ordinations Are Illegitimate

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1310499510' post='2266465']
And then when somebody starts up a forum about MLB, you can go and start arguments about how your league is better, because your umpires are more faithful to the "true" sport of baseball, and even the spectators in your stands are more respectful toward the sport. You might even consider starting your own forum to support your own league...


...


...


I'm not breaking any rules by being sarcastic, am I?
[/quote]
[i]sarcasm meter 5/5[/i]

[Aloysius]

I do not support the SSPX, and clearly state again and again that they are wrong in what they do in defying Church authority, but I think people's attitudes about them and especially their analogies are over the top. By a lot. They are not protestants. They are not Nancy Pelosi. They felt the Church was lost in dark woods, so they retraced the Church's steps and camped out back where the Church was before she entered those woods. They felt the game of baseball was in danger when a few umpires began acting like all balls thrown were strikes unless they were thrown in the traditional manner, in which case the pitcher was thrown out of the game (ie, the de facto ban on/abrogation of the Traditional Latin Mass which Summorum Pontificum reveals was never licit), so they went and made sure the game of baseball was being played correctly somewhere, to the shagrin of the MLB. I don't like the baseball analogy as much as the woods analogy, but there it is; they're not making up their own game, they're trying to pass it on as it was passed down to them.

Martin Luther's doctrines were different, they were a marked rupture from the teaching of the Church. he felt he was ressurecting something from St. Augustine and the Church Fathers. that's completely different than what the SSPX is doing. Martin Luther was removed by at least a millenium by what he was trying to ressurect, and therefore was definitely ending up making his own things up. There is a direct connection between the SSPX and the period in time of Church history in which every last one of their positions would have been considered acceptable. they do not make things up or extrapolate on them, or at least they try not to, they pass down what was passed down to them. Lefebvre was taught x, y, and z; he taught x, y, and z to Fellay et al., who have been teaching x, y, and z to their seminarians. not protestantism.

fides' jack, you're fine in your sarcasm, except that no one in this thread supports the SSPX. they simply take a more nuanced approach than the shouts of the peanut gallery about how simple it all is, about how stupid and wrong the SSPX are, about how glad they are that they are so right and the SSPX is so wrong. even if that's not the intention, that's the sense I get from many posts about the situation, the prayer of the pharisee rather than that of the publican. there are reasons the SSPX ended up in this situation; reasons that have deep rooted causes on both sides. much of the hierarchy suppressed traditional forms of worship, many within the Church demanded that we all hold that things that previous generations held as sacred as now being harmful. perhaps there was a better way to handle the situation (probably, actually, but on Monday morning there's always a better way one could have quarter backed), but one should keep a better perspective on it.

someone above said the closest traditional latin mass to them was SSPX in pittsburgh, but there is a diocesan Traditional Latin Mass which has been daily (deo gratias, and Zubik gratias while we're at it) since Lent 2011. 11am High Mass on Sundays, St. Boniface Church/Holy Wisdom Parish. The Pittsburgh Latin Mass Community.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1310431469' post='2266075']
Yeah was going for the movie...

I tried to read the SSPX site once; their fidelity didn't exactly leap out in my face from their FAQ. They actually have the closest Traditional Latin Mass to me I think, in Pittsburgh as I found out just yesterday.
[/quote]


I tried to read there site twice - once about 5yrs ago and once recently having joined Phatmass. I have been left feeling nauseaus each time and in need to getting to church and the Blessed sacrament. I don't mean about to puke, but definate nausea and nervousness came over me. Same has happened looking at sites for convents I have later found are not in the Church. I don't consider myself perceptive on most things, but I do think this says something to me.


I love the Church and I have faith that its hierarchy have made, do make and will continue to make important decisions based on serious prayer and discernment, not on whims or based on what is 'trendy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1310430233' post='2266043']
No. In your hypothetical, you'd have to go form your own league because you disagreed with the umpire, and then hire your own umpires in your own league that have to follow your interpretation of the rules.

Sure, you'd still be playing baseball, just not in the Major Leagues anymore, with no chance of ever winning a pennant.
[/quote]
I think you're getting confused with the Orthodox. . .
The SSPX are not in schism.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1310511515' post='2266585']
I do not support the SSPX, and clearly state again and again that they are wrong in what they do in defying Church authority, but I think people's attitudes about them and especially their analogies are over the top. By a lot. They are not protestants. They are not Nancy Pelosi. They felt the Church was lost in dark woods, so they retraced the Church's steps and camped out back where the Church was before she entered those woods. They felt the game of baseball was in danger when a few umpires began acting like all balls thrown were strikes unless they were thrown in the traditional manner, in which case the pitcher was thrown out of the game (ie, the de facto ban on/abrogation of the Traditional Latin Mass which Summorum Pontificum reveals was never licit), so they went and made sure the game of baseball was being played correctly somewhere, to the shagrin of the MLB. I don't like the baseball analogy as much as the woods analogy, but there it is; they're not making up their own game, they're trying to pass it on as it was passed down to them.

Martin Luther's doctrines were different, they were a marked rupture from the teaching of the Church. he felt he was ressurecting something from St. Augustine and the Church Fathers. that's completely different than what the SSPX is doing. Martin Luther was removed by at least a millenium by what he was trying to ressurect, and therefore was definitely ending up making his own things up. There is a direct connection between the SSPX and the period in time of Church history in which every last one of their positions would have been considered acceptable. they do not make things up or extrapolate on them, or at least they try not to, they pass down what was passed down to them. Lefebvre was taught x, y, and z; he taught x, y, and z to Fellay et al., who have been teaching x, y, and z to their seminarians. not protestantism.

fides' jack, you're fine in your sarcasm, except that no one in this thread supports the SSPX. they simply take a more nuanced approach than the shouts of the peanut gallery about how simple it all is, about how stupid and wrong the SSPX are, about how glad they are that they are so right and the SSPX is so wrong. even if that's not the intention, that's the sense I get from many posts about the situation, the prayer of the pharisee rather than that of the publican. there are reasons the SSPX ended up in this situation; reasons that have deep rooted causes on both sides. much of the hierarchy suppressed traditional forms of worship, many within the Church demanded that we all hold that things that previous generations held as sacred as now being harmful. perhaps there was a better way to handle the situation (probably, actually, but on Monday morning there's always a better way one could have quarter backed), but one should keep a better perspective on it.

someone above said the closest traditional latin mass to them was SSPX in pittsburgh, but there is a diocesan Traditional Latin Mass which has been daily (deo gratias, and Zubik gratias while we're at it) since Lent 2011. 11am High Mass on Sundays, St. Boniface Church/Holy Wisdom Parish. The Pittsburgh Latin Mass Community.
[/quote]
Agreed 100 times.

[SoylentGreene]

I don't in any way dispute the fact that the SSPX people are schismatic. However, my question is, Is what they're doing any worse than the crazies on the other side of the spectrum? For example the wacknuts who "ordain" women, or the infamous sister who was chaperoning women into the abortion clinic??

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1310678176' post='2267484']
I don't in any way dispute the fact that the SSPX people are schismatic. However, my question is, Is what they're doing any worse than the crazies on the other side of the spectrum? For example the wacknuts who "ordain" women, or the infamous sister who was chaperoning women into the abortion clinic??
[/quote]
No, and in fact, I would say that their situation carries less gravity than these.

[SoylentGreene]

So why are the Sspx people so demonized and the other ones I mentioned aren't? Why do the 'liberal' weirdos get to do what they want but the conservative ones don't?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1310678176' post='2267484']
I don't in any way dispute the fact that the SSPX people are schismatic. However, my question is, Is what they're doing any worse than the crazies on the other side of the spectrum? For example the wacknuts who "ordain" women, or the infamous sister who was chaperoning women into the abortion clinic??
[/quote]
I'm not sure if this is just phrased ambiguously, but I want to make sure I clarify: the SSPX are not in schism.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1310682686' post='2267509']Why do the 'liberal' weirdos get to do what they want but the conservative ones don't?
[/quote]
You must be new here.

[Amppax]

[quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1310682686' post='2267509']
So why are the Sspx people so demonized and the other ones I mentioned aren't? Why do the 'liberal' weirdos get to do what they want but the conservative ones don't?
[/quote]

It's easier to laugh the liberal ones off

[MithLuin]

Well.....a priest who is involved in the 'ordination' of a woman is excommunicated. [url=http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=1376](story)[/url]

A nun who allows abortions to be performed in her hospital is also excommunicated. [url=http://ncronline.org/news/justice/nun-excommunicated-allowing-abortion](story)[/url]

The nun who was acting as an escort at an abortion clinic was told to stop by her community when the story gained wide publicity. She complied. So while her views remain extreme and incompatible with the Church's teaching in many ways, she [i]did[/i] cease the controversial activity when ordered to under obedience. Had she refused, she could have faced expulsion from her community. [url=http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/nov/09110501](story)[/url]

And Chinese bishops who ordain new bishops because the Chinese gov't told them to without the permission of the Vatican are also excommunicated. [url=http://www.romereports.com/palio/vatican-clarifies-status-of-excommunicated-chinese-bishop-english-4520.html](story)[/url]

The Church is fairly consistent on these things, and it's not a good idea to say, 'No fair! Why aren't [i]they[/i] being disciplined?' when a group that is clearly in the wrong is also disciplined.

The SSPX is not in communion with the Catholic Church. The excommunications have been lifted, but they were certainly 'legally' applied for a clear transgression of direct disobedience to the pope. People who attend their chapels do so at their own peril. The Church strongly urges Catholics [i]not[/i] to do so.

Is this the only thing Catholics should avoid? Of course not. But that doesn't make it okay.

[Aloysius]

I have done my best to make the case that the SSPX are not comparable to those things. They are like a child who runs away so that they can live under stricter rules, they are a society that has attempted to obey the rules as they were in place prior to the Second Vatican Council. while they are wrong in their disobedience, not all disobedience is equal. disobeying to perform an abortion is not the same as disobeying because you fear the traditional rites of the Church are about to be lost forever, I will never hold those two as even remotely comparable.

these ordinations carry only suspensions with them, not excomunications.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1310814078' post='2268148']
I have done my best to make the case that the SSPX are not comparable to those things. They are like a child who runs away so that they can live under stricter rules, they are a society that has attempted to obey the rules as they were in place prior to the Second Vatican Council. while they are wrong in their disobedience, not all disobedience is equal. disobeying to perform an abortion is not the same as disobeying because you fear the traditional rites of the Church are about to be lost forever, I will never hold those two as even remotely comparable.

[b]these ordinations carry only suspensions with them, not excomunications.
[/b][/quote]
Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it specifically stated when the excommunications were lifted that the original order of excommunication no longer carries and juridical weight whatsoever?

[4588686]

[quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1310682686' post='2267509']
So why are the Sspx people so demonized and the other ones I mentioned aren't? Why do the 'liberal' weirdos get to do what they want but the conservative ones don't?
[/quote]



Of course. Victimization.

[SoylentGreene]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1310832664' post='2268226']
Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it specifically stated when the excommunications were lifted that the original order of excommunication no longer carries and juridical weight whatsoever?
[/quote]

You're not mistaken.