4588686 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310351158' post='2265544'] personal likes and dislikes have little to do with it. It is tradition that serves as an authority. [/quote] They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545']Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued. [/quote] Which would have all sorts of ugly implications about Pope Benedict and his status, &c... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545'] They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued. [/quote] No, you don't take obedience "full package" precisely because authority is limited. As mentioned earlier, we are not bound to accept what is contrary or harmful to the faith. And therefore the issue is not disobedience itself, but what is the justification for the disobedience. There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified. There are even cases were a subject must publically REBUKE their superior. Is the disobedience of the liberal justified? No. And this takes no difficulty in demonstrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310351544' post='2265546'] Which would have all sorts of ugly implications about Pope Benedict and his status, &c... [/quote] It's not like the only alternative is sedevacantism. There are many hypothesis put forward to explain the situation we are in. For one, it could be simple weakness. The Popes have not been exercising their supreme authority, and therefore liberal bishops have been running havock throughout the church. This in no way questions the status of the Holy Father, nor the office his occupies. Edited July 11, 2011 by mortify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310357469' post='2265609'] There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified. [/quote] Is this one of them? Should SSPX be disobeying Rome at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310358140' post='2265622'] Is this one of them? Should SSPX be disobeying Rome at the moment? [/quote] God knows my friend, I don't have the knowledge necessary to provide an answer. All I can say is the Church has never been in the situation we are currently in. Time will ultimately tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 there have been worst times in the Church's History ...I have no fear, the Holy Spirit has never left Her and He isn't leaving Her now ...liberals and far-right extremists will come and go, but God remains forever with His Bride ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1310042130' post='2263963'] SSPX: yer doin it wrong FSSP: yer doing it rite! [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_T3lg6p_ATmc/TOBC07D8SJI/AAAAAAAAGeA/rK9GYCIDNMQ/s1600/FSSP+logo.jpg[/img] simple enuff..... [/quote] thank you ...we don't pay enuff attention to the [b]obedient[/b] Traddies ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310358942' post='2265633'] God knows my friend, I don't have the knowledge necessary to provide an answer. All I can say is the Church has never been in the situation we are currently in. Time will ultimately tell. [/quote] Well. For whatever it's worth. I respect this answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310339447' post='2265480'] Obedience doesn't count for poo when you're only obedient about things and orders that you like and agree with. [/quote] Phunny, that's approximately what Jesus said about love, too, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1310359640' post='2265642'] Phunny, that's approximately what Jesus said about love, too, isn't it? [/quote] It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Posted in error. Edited July 11, 2011 by Luigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545'] They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued. [/quote] exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310357469' post='2265609'] No, you don't take obedience "full package" precisely because authority is limited. As mentioned earlier, we are not bound to accept what is contrary or harmful to the faith. And therefore the issue is not disobedience itself, but what is the justification for the disobedience. There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified. There are even cases were a subject must publically REBUKE their superior. Is the disobedience of the liberal justified? No. And this takes no difficulty in demonstrating. [/quote] If tradition is the final arbiter or right and wrong, then we don't need an authority figure at the head of the Church do we? We also need only one sentence in our theology/liturgy books - we've always done it this way. Edited July 11, 2011 by Luigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1310359147' post='2265636'] there have been worst times in the Church's History ...I have no fear, the Holy Spirit has never left Her and He isn't leaving Her now ...liberals and far-right extremists will come and go, but God remains forever with His Bride ... [/quote] I don't know if there ever was a time where 70% of Catholics believed the Eucharist was merely a symbol (This alone warrants the calling of an ecumenical council.) Nor has there every been a time where thousands of priests, nuns, and religious have been abandoning their vocations. One only needs to compare the thriving Church prior to the changes to the shrinking Church after. We are really in the worst of times, but God is certainly with those who seek His will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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