Establishing A Catholic State

[mortify]

[img]http://www.sfdsnyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/christ-the-king.jpg[/img]



Today I was thinking how much the Church and Catholics have been submerged in our pluralistic state. And what a shame! I then thought, should Catholics be working for a Catholic state? And if so, what would that state look like?



Here is an interesting quote from Pope Pius XI's, Quas Primas. These quotes disturb me at how negligent we have become!


[i]17. It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. Nevertheless, during his life on earth he refrained from the exercise of such authority, and although he himself disdained to possess or to care for earthly goods, he did not, nor does he today, interfere with those who possess them. Non eripit mortalia qui regna dat caelestia.[27]

18. Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men. To use the words of Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII: [color="#FF0000"]"His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, [u]but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ[/u]."[28][/color] Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In him is the salvation of the individual, in him is the salvation of society. "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved."[29] He is the author of happiness and true prosperity for every man and for every nation. "For a nation is happy when its citizens are happy. What else is a nation but a number of men living in concord?"[30] If, therefore, the rulers of nations wish to preserve their authority, to promote and increase the prosperity of their countries, they will not neglect the public duty of reverence and obedience to the rule of Christ. What We said at the beginning of Our Pontificate concerning the decline of public authority, and the lack of respect for the same, is equally true at the present day. "With God and Jesus Christ," we said, "excluded from political life, with authority derived not from God but from man, the very basis of that authority has been taken away, because the chief reason of the distinction between ruler and subject has been eliminated. The result is that human society is tottering to its fall, because it has no longer a secure and solid foundation."[31][/i]


Booya!

Edited July 5, 2011 by mortify

[MithLuin]

Yes, Christ reigns over all, and every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord!

There are a few nations that are predominantly Catholic: Ireland, Poland, the Phillippines, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ecuador, Cuba, Rwanda, East Timor, etc. Though some of those are more nominal than actual at this point in time.

There are even a handful that are 'officially' Catholic, to the point of having a Catholic monarchy: Malta, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg.

I don't think the goal is to turn the US into one of these, but it is certainly true that Jesus has sovreignty over everyone.

[ThePenciledOne]

Making everything Catholic won't help the problem of humanity, even without the pervading 'secularism', we are still fallen creatures in much need of God's Grace.

Instead of trying to dream up a 'Catholic State' let's just focus on the reality before us and how best to evangelize, and Love our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter their opinions/perspectives/mindsets.

[aggiornamento]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309842783' post='2263197']
Making everything Catholic won't help the problem of humanity, even without the pervading 'secularism', we are still fallen creatures in much need of God's Grace.

Instead of trying to dream up a 'Catholic State' let's just focus on the reality before us and how best to evangelize, and Love our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter their opinions/perspectives/mindsets.
[/quote]

amen

[kujo]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309842783' post='2263197']
Making everything Catholic won't help the problem of humanity, even without the pervading 'secularism', we are still fallen creatures in much need of God's Grace.

Instead of trying to dream up a 'Catholic State' let's just focus on the reality before us and how best to evangelize, and Love our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter their opinions/perspectives/mindsets.
[/quote]

Truth.

In fact, I'd run away from a Catholic state. Catholics can oppress you the same way that the fake-Christian politicians we currently have can.

[Maximilianus]

Where do I sign up? In a Catholic state I will never have to justify my request to not work on Sundays, Holy Week or Holy Days. because all those days would be actual Holidays.
Woot!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309871031' post='2263227']
Truth.

In fact, I'd run away from a Catholic state. Catholics can oppress you the same way that the fake-Christian politicians we currently have can.
[/quote]


Exactly. Governments are of this world, which is fine I'm not saying government is a bad thing, it is just they are simply that.

Jesus and His Father rule the next and it's not in the form or context of governance, we only imagine that because of our finitude.

What we should be trying to do is put for some legitimate Catholics that will actually stay within the Faith and conduct themselves as such while in politics.

[Laudate_Dominum]

A totalitarian Catholic state doesn't sound much better to me than a totalitarian Islamic state. It's nothing against the faith either, I just think such things often bring out the worst in religion. Surely I'd prefer it to something like THX1138, but I guess my ideal would be an optimally free society with a mainstream culture reflective of Catholic values. If that were the case then laws reflecting Catholic morality and all of that would fall into place and it would actually be authentic (assuming such "laws" would even be necessary at all).

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1309874202' post='2263233']
A totalitarian Catholic state doesn't sound much better to me than a totalitarian Islamic state. It's nothing against the faith either, I just think such things often bring out the worst in religion. Surely I'd prefer it to something like THX1138, but I guess my ideal would be an optimally free society with a mainstream culture reflective of Catholic values. If that were the case then laws reflecting Catholic morality and all of that would fall into place and it would actually be authentic (assuming such "laws" would even be necessary at all).
[/quote]


Sounds a lot like some sort of peaceful anarchistic society.

Edited July 5, 2011 by ThePenciledOne

[mortify]

A lot can be said about this and unfortunately I don't have the time right now. The main point is that Christ is King, all human beings whether they are baptized or unbaptized fall under his dominion. As Catholics who are members of His Church, we have a *duty* to seek His Reign in government, so His rights are met. This doesn't mean we have to revert to hereditary monarchy, and it certainly doesn't mean the government will be tyranical! Far from it!

Let me leave you with another quote from Pope Pius XI's great encyclical, and ask yourself why Catholics have lost this zeal...


[i]
"The rebellion of individuals and states against the authority of Christ has produced deplorable consequences. We lamented these in the Encyclical Ubi arcano; we lament them today: the seeds of discord sown far and wide; those bitter enmities and rivalries between nations, which still hinder so much the cause of peace; that insatiable greed which is so often hidden under a pretense of public spirit and patriotism, and gives rise to so many private quarrels; a blind and immoderate selfishness, making men seek nothing but their own comfort and advantage, and measure everything by these; no peace in the home, because men have forgotten or neglect their duty; the unity and stability of the family undermined; society in a word, shaken to its foundations and on the way to ruin. [u]We firmly hope, however, that the feast of the Kingship of Christ, which in future will be yearly observed, may hasten the return of society to our loving Savior.

[color="#FF0000"]"[b]It would be the duty of Catholics to do all they can to bring about this happy result[/b].[/color][/u] Many of these, however, have neither the station in society nor the authority which should belong to those who bear the torch of truth. This state of things may perhaps be attributed to a certain slowness and timidity in good people, who are reluctant to engage in conflict or oppose but a weak resistance; thus the enemies of the Church become bolder in their attacks. But [color="#FF0000"]if the faithful were generally to understand that [u][b]it behooves them ever to fight[/b] [/u]courageously under the banner of Christ their King, then, fired with apostolic zeal, they would strive to win over to their Lord those hearts that are bitter and estranged from him, and would valiantly defend his rights.[/color] [/i]


What can justify our cowardice?

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309887832' post='2263280']
[b]What can justify our cowardice?[/b]
[/quote]

We do not know how to Love.

Edited July 5, 2011 by ThePenciledOne

[mortify]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309896430' post='2263317']
We do not know how to Love.
[/quote]

Nah son, we don't know how to fight. We got our minds around love being an emotion, God our "buddy," and unity being the most important thing. Our zeal is dryed up, fighting for the faith just isn't worth it. The idea of even striving to make Christ King in our society is crazy... and that's among Catholics!

What a sad lot we have become!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309904618' post='2263364']
Nah son, we don't know how to fight. We got our minds around love being an emotion, God our "buddy," and unity being the most important thing. Our zeal is dryed up, fighting for the faith just isn't worth it. The idea of even striving to make Christ King in our society is crazy... and that's among Catholics!

What a sad lot we have become!
[/quote]

What did Christ tell us? He told us to Love, truly Love. You hinted at making Love being an emotion, which is partly true since it affects our affectivity.

But our true enemy isn't of this world, for our battle is not of the flesh but against the dark principalities of the Prince below. That is who we fight.

Our problem is that we keep making our fellow man the enemy instead of the influences/ideas/and demonic activity that are present in the forces arrayed against the Catholic Church.

And don't call me son.

[Chrysophylax]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309829218' post='2263160']
[i]17. It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power. Nevertheless, during his life on earth he refrained from the exercise of such authority, and although he himself disdained to possess or to care for earthly goods, he did not, nor does he today, interfere with those who possess them. Non eripit mortalia qui regna dat caelestia.[27]

18. Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men. To use the words of Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII: [color="#ff0000"]"His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, [u]but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ[/u]."[28][/color] Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In him is the salvation of the individual, in him is the salvation of society. "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved."[29] He is the author of happiness and true prosperity for every man and for every nation. "For a nation is happy when its citizens are happy. What else is a nation but a number of men living in concord?"[30] If, therefore, the rulers of nations wish to preserve their authority, to promote and increase the prosperity of their countries, they will not neglect the public duty of reverence and obedience to the rule of Christ. What We said at the beginning of Our Pontificate concerning the decline of public authority, and the lack of respect for the same, is equally true at the present day. "With God and Jesus Christ," we said, "excluded from political life, with authority derived not from God but from man, the very basis of that authority has been taken away, because the chief reason of the distinction between ruler and subject has been eliminated. The result is that human society is tottering to its fall, because it has no longer a secure and solid foundation."[31][/i]
[/quote]


[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309887832' post='2263280'][i]
"The rebellion of individuals and states against the authority of Christ has produced deplorable consequences. We lamented these in the Encyclical Ubi arcano; we lament them today: the seeds of discord sown far and wide; those bitter enmities and rivalries between nations, which still hinder so much the cause of peace; that insatiable greed which is so often hidden under a pretense of public spirit and patriotism, and gives rise to so many private quarrels; a blind and immoderate selfishness, making men seek nothing but their own comfort and advantage, and measure everything by these; no peace in the home, because men have forgotten or neglect their duty; the unity and stability of the family undermined; society in a word, shaken to its foundations and on the way to ruin. [u]We firmly hope, however, that the feast of the Kingship of Christ, which in future will be yearly observed, may hasten the return of society to our loving Savior.

[color="#ff0000"]"[b]It would be the duty of Catholics to do all they can to bring about this happy result[/b].[/color][/u] Many of these, however, have neither the station in society nor the authority which should belong to those who bear the torch of truth. This state of things may perhaps be attributed to a certain slowness and timidity in good people, who are reluctant to engage in conflict or oppose but a weak resistance; thus the enemies of the Church become bolder in their attacks. But [color="#ff0000"]if the faithful were generally to understand that [u][b]it behooves them ever to fight[/b] [/u]courageously under the banner of Christ their King, then, fired with apostolic zeal, they would strive to win over to their Lord those hearts that are bitter and estranged from him, and would valiantly defend his rights.[/color] [/i]
[/quote]

THIS IS SO amesome!!!!
And imagine going beyond just Catholic State to the point where you had a country where you had converted the majority of everyone to Catholicism...
Have you ever daydreamed about what it would be like to live in a country where everyone was Catholic? What it would be like if our leaders actually realized their authority was GIVEN to them by God? And if they Loved God and Made holiness their first priority? And did everything in their power to promote justice and goodness, morality and Love of God?? A society where people bowed only to God, where greed was checked and there was no billions of dollars in national debt because not only would our leaders be good men, but everyone would strive to be honest and productive. If everyone worked honestly and we put our money into our own economy by buying and producing locally instead of throwing money into (alright, over) the ocean. IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO SEE YOUR PRESIDENT, YOUR CONGRESS PERSON, YOUR LAWYER, BANKER, ETC IN CHURCH NEXT TO YOU EVERY SUNDAY OR IN LINE BEHIND YOU FOR CONFESSION!!! Imagine walking the streets and hearing people singing the Te Deum all around you!!! (alright, I know that one is unrealistic....)


I could go on forever, because that would be that absolute-ly most amazing-est amesome cool wonderful nice sweet great holy righteous BEST THING EVER!!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Chrysophylax' timestamp='1309910630' post='2263397']
THIS IS SO amesome!!!!
And imagine going beyond just Catholic State to the point where you had a country where you had converted the majority of everyone to Catholicism...
Have you ever daydreamed about what it would be like to live in a country where everyone was Catholic? What it would be like if our leaders actually realized their authority was GIVEN to them by God? And if they Loved God and Made holiness their first priority? And did everything in their power to promote justice and goodness, morality and Love of God?? A society where people bowed only to God, where greed was checked and there was no billions of dollars in national debt because not only would our leaders be good men, but everyone would strive to be honest and productive. If everyone worked honestly and we put our money into our own economy by buying and producing locally instead of throwing money into (alright, over) the ocean. IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO SEE YOUR PRESIDENT, YOUR CONGRESS PERSON, YOUR LAWYER, BANKER, ETC IN CHURCH NEXT TO YOU EVERY SUNDAY OR IN LINE BEHIND YOU FOR CONFESSION!!! Imagine walking the streets and hearing people singing the Te Deum all around you!!! (alright, I know that one is unrealistic....)


I could go on forever, because that would be that absolute-ly most amazing-est amesome cool wonderful nice sweet great holy righteous BEST THING EVER!!
[/quote]

Called heaven bro.