The Patriot Act

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309969107' post='2263641']
How convenient The "come to Jesus" moment came when a party you dislike ascends to power. This is known as the political variant of the jailhouse conversion or the deathbed confession.

At least Socrates has been consistent about it. I do remember him voicing opposition for quite some time.
[/quote]
well, for myself, it has been more of little incidents (online, in real life) building up to make me realize that some things in our country are coming to a point where we need to be more aware of our country's history and the liberties i have been taking for granted. yes, part of it spurred on by the election of Obama, but I was starting to become more aware in the time of George Bush.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309991249' post='2263790']
Yes. You are excessive.


In the meantime, the people have built their bomb and are on their way to their target. Keep your fingers crossed that the target is not near you.


[/quote]


how am i excessive? do you disagree with what i said or are you just doing a last ditch "yo mamma" to avoid giving a real answer?



where exactly would you draw the line with these invasions of privacy? did you by any chance think that "24" was a documentary?

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310018272' post='2263939']
how am i excessive? do you disagree with what i said or are you just doing a last ditch "yo mamma" to avoid giving a real answer?
[/quote]
Your total dismissal of the Patriot Act is excessive. I never stated the Patriot Act is good or bad. I understand its threat to the bill of rights. I also understand the serious threat of terrorist wanting to nuke all of America. The Patriot Act is not flawless, but it does have merit. I think it was rushed in too quick due to the emotion of 9/11 and should be revamped. It does not have to be the Patriot Act, but I think there needs to be a mechanism in place to bypass the red tape that could take weeks to get approval or even no approval. And there needs to be a severe punishment for officers abusing this mechanism.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310018272' post='2263939']
where exactly would you draw the line with these invasions of privacy? did you by any chance think that "24" was a documentary?
[/quote]
Never watched 24. But if you use TV programming to form your thinking, then I have nothing more to add.

[Marie-Therese]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Ben Franklin

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1310046566' post='2263978']
Your total dismissal of the Patriot Act is excessive. I never stated the Patriot Act is good or bad. I understand its threat to the bill of rights. I also understand the serious threat of terrorist wanting to nuke all of America. The Patriot Act is not flawless, but it does have merit. I think it was rushed in too quick due to the emotion of 9/11 and should be revamped. It does not have to be the Patriot Act, but I think there needs to be a mechanism in place to bypass the red tape that could take weeks to get approval or even no approval. And there needs to be a severe punishment for officers abusing this mechanism.
[/quote]

the fact that the patriot act may have some good parts in it is not enough to make up for it's institutionalized circumvention of due process and human rights.

it needs to go. if it turns out that parts of it are needed, then maybe those parts could be considered seperately.

lets put this another way. If there was a reform bill set up to fix a lot of problems with the US healthcare system, but it happened to also heavily support abortion, would you support that bill?


[quote]
Never watched 24. But if you use TV programming to form your thinking, then I have nothing more to add.
[/quote]

remind me where i said that i used TV programming to form my thinking? in fact, what i said was i questioned if you were doing that. your answer was a "i know you are, but what am I?" painful.


[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1310053788' post='2264009']
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Ben Franklin
[/quote]

This is all that really needs to be said here.

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1310046566' post='2263978']
Your total dismissal of the Patriot Act is excessive. I never stated the Patriot Act is good or bad. I understand its threat to the bill of rights. I also understand the serious threat of terrorist wanting to nuke all of America. The Patriot Act is not flawless, but it does have merit. I think it was rushed in too quick due to the emotion of 9/11 and should be revamped. It does not have to be the Patriot Act, but I think there needs to be a mechanism in place to bypass the red tape that could take weeks to get approval or even no approval. And there needs to be a severe punishment for officers abusing this mechanism.


Never watched 24. But if you use TV programming to form your thinking, then I have nothing more to add.
[/quote]

It's interesting that you mention the threat of a generic "terrorist" who wants to "nuke all of America," and then belittle Jesus_lol for using television (and the show "24") as a basis for his thoughts on the Patriot Act. You know, considering that the very lone-wolf, "ticking-time bomb" scenario itself is basically an unrealistic "plot" from a myriad television, movie and fictional books that have come around since 9/11.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310069026' post='2264090']
It's interesting that you mention the threat of a generic "terrorist" who wants to "nuke all of America," and then belittle Jesus_lol for using television (and the show "24") as a basis for his thoughts on the Patriot Act. You know, considering that the very lone-wolf, "ticking-time bomb" scenario itself is basically an unrealistic "plot" from a myriad television, movie and fictional books that have come around since 9/11.
[/quote]

lol especially since i dont use it as a basis for my thoughts, and was in fact saying it seemed like he was doing so. he turned that around nicely didnt he?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309673564' post='2262526']
by no means the definitive info on it, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act should be enough for people not familiar with the law and its history.

what do you all guys think about this? it doesnt come up much here, but its been a big concern of mine since it was first enacted.










First it was enacted by a Republican government and then shamefully prolonged by a Democrat government, and it seems what used to be a one sided support for the bill has become nearly unilateral, with only a few dissenting politicians.
[/quote]

THIS is scary, http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2011/06/department-of-education-sends-swat-like.html, a little known provision of the Patriot Act.

[kamiller42]

The Patriot Act is a necessary response to a threat. Its purpose is to upgrade law enforcement from the days of Eliot Ness and Dragnet. It's only permanent as the legislative and executive branches allow it to be. And despite all of the hand wringing about it, there have been no major rulings against it by the U.S. Supreme Court. In addition to the 3 branches of government upholding the law, democrats, the party which has waged a propaganda war against it because of its association with Pres. Bush, have also supported the bill. This includes the Chosen One signing an extension of provisions. Clearly, there is value to the Patriot Act.

If you disagree with the bill, cite what portions and why. My gut feeling is some people are joining the anti-Patriot Act because bad press, fueled by the fringe left and right, has been unrelenting.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1310133107' post='2264420']
THIS is scary, http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2011/06/department-of-education-sends-swat-like.html, a little known provision of the Patriot Act.
[/quote]
Can you cite and quote the provision? The only sites I have found making a connection between this event and the Patriot Act are conspiratorial blogs. And if this case is true, where law enforcement makes an error, should all laws where error can occur be removed?

[Winchester]

The problem with accepting violations of rights because your government is at war is that the government may then remain at war and continue thereby to violate your rights.

[kujo]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1310140442' post='2264472']
The problem with accepting violations of rights because your government is at war is that the government may then remain at war and continue thereby to violate your rights.
[/quote]

Right.

And since we're "scaling down" the war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, shouldn't that necessitate the end of the need for the Patriot Act?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310143223' post='2264495']
Right.

And since we're "scaling down" the war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, shouldn't that necessitate the end of the need for the Patriot Act?
[/quote]
umm, i thought we just declared war on Somalia?

[kujo]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310145982' post='2264512']
umm, i thought we just declared war on Somalia?
[/quote]

Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan...all the countries with brown people....

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1310140442' post='2264472']
The problem with accepting violations of rights because your government is at war is that the government may then remain at war and continue thereby to violate your rights.
[/quote]
This explains how pro-abortionists won their "rights" near the end of the Vietnam war. It was the wars keeping them down. ;-)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310149269' post='2264546']
This explains how [s]pro-abortionists won their "rights"[/s] [i]unborn children lost all their rights[/i] near the end of the Vietnam war. It was the wars keeping them down. ;-)
[/quote]
Fixed for you.