The Patriot Act

[kujo]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1309961198' post='2263598']
It's possible he followed my same pattern. Spurred by someone more clearly opposed to individual liberty, he read more and paid attention and changed his mind. It's quite possible to have been spurred to change by partisanship, only to abandon partisanship later.
[/quote]

How convenient The "come to Jesus" moment came when a party you dislike ascends to power. This is known as the political variant of the jailhouse conversion or the deathbed confession.

At least Socrates has been consistent about it. I do remember him voicing opposition for quite some time.

Edited July 6, 2011 by kujo

[Socrates]

Perhaps you should ask Groo why he changed his mind, rather than speculating about it, if it's really such a pressing issue.

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309976625' post='2263693']
Perhaps you should ask Groo why he changed his mind, rather than speculating about it, if it's really such a pressing issue.
[/quote]

Oh you [i]will[/i] have to excuse me for being speculative. I [i]know[/i] that you would [i]never[/i] do such a thing...


Groo, would you care to elaborate?

Edited July 6, 2011 by kujo

[Papist]

I am for the Patriot Act.

We all need to act like a patriot.

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309760233' post='2262900']
in a general sense, i find it quite disturbing, that often the same people who froth at the mouth at the thought of government involvement in their wallet, taxes, rights, guns are perfectly willing to sacrifice their freedom and right to privacy in the name of this stupid bill.
[/quote]
Right to privacy. The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.

Does the Patriot Act not state there needs to be just cause to spy on people?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309979048' post='2263718']
Right to privacy. The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.

Does the Patriot Act not state there needs to be just cause to spy on people?
[/quote]

the patriot act allows for police and other government agencies to spy on people without pesky things like "warrants" or "probable cause" if they can do something as easy as say "this guy knows a few middle eastern people, he is probably a terrorist".

illegal wiretapping, GPS tracking, surveillance... doesnt sound good to me.

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309981654' post='2263732']
the patriot act allows for police and other government agencies to spy on people without pesky things like "warrants" or "probable cause" if they can do something as easy as say "this guy knows a few middle eastern people, he is probably a terrorist".

illegal wiretapping, GPS tracking, surveillance... doesnt sound good to me.
[/quote]
What's the alternative? We can't just suppress surveillance in order to prevent the rogue cop from abusing it. There's got to be some leeway here. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309984190' post='2263752']
What's the alternative? We can't just suppress surveillance in order to prevent the rogue cop from abusing it. There's got to be some leeway here. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.


[/quote]

ok, george bush was caught illegally wiretapping 300 million people. does that seem a little excessive?

police could do surveillance long before the patriot act. they just had to 1) come up with a good reason to do so and 2)bring that reason to a judge and get a warrant. Not at all unreasonable.

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309979048' post='2263718']
Right to privacy. The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.

Does the Patriot Act not state there needs to be just cause to spy on people?
[/quote]

See, I think the Right to Privacy DOES exist, albeit in an inferential sense as it pertains to our Constitution. I just don't think that that right extends to abortion.

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309985468' post='2263759']
ok, george bush was caught illegally wiretapping 300 million people. does that seem a little excessive?
[/quote]
Yes. You are excessive.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309985468' post='2263759']
police could do surveillance long before the patriot act. they just had to 1) come up with a good reason to do so and 2)bring that reason to a judge and get a warrant. Not at all unreasonable.
[/quote]
In the meantime, the people have built their bomb and are on their way to their target. Keep your fingers crossed that the target is not near you.

[Papist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309986325' post='2263761']
See, I think the Right to Privacy DOES exist, albeit in an inferential sense as it pertains to our Constitution. I just don't think that that right extends to abortion.
[/quote]
Yes, but I think people believe that right to privacy gives them a legal right to do anything they want as long as it is "in the privacy of their own home".

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309991599' post='2263791']
Yes, but I think people believe that right to privacy gives them a legal right to do anything they want as long as it is "in the privacy of their own home".
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't think anyone believes that.

[Papist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309994074' post='2263810']
Yeah, I don't think anyone believes that.
[/quote]
I believe and I have known people to believe that. However, they might have matured their worldview since college.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309969107' post='2263641']
How convenient The "come to Jesus" moment came when a party you dislike ascends to power. This is known as the political variant of the jailhouse conversion or the deathbed confession.

At least Socrates has been consistent about it. I do remember him voicing opposition for quite some time.
[/quote]
Of course, Sternhauser probably had something to do with it. And Nihil, and that pencil kid.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309795011' post='2263004']That said, I think the Patriot Act is just another drop in the bucket compared with past expansions of government power that we take for granted today.[/quote]
[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309797351' post='2263023']i dont know about that last one. sure there are other expansions, but this one is definitely pretty serious as it directly bypasses the citizens constitutional rights and the legal system[/quote]
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1309797390' post='2263024']I think it's very bad.[/quote]
[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1309798083' post='2263032']Used to think it was good. Now I do not. Big Brother.[/quote]
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1309953855' post='2263564']protecting my liberties by taking them away.
[img]http://twistedsifter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/guinness-brilliant.jpg[/img][/quote]
yup. all these.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309981654' post='2263732']
the patriot act allows for police and other government agencies to spy on people without pesky things like "warrants" or "probable cause" if they can do something as easy as say "this guy knows a few middle eastern people, he is probably a terrorist".

illegal wiretapping, GPS tracking, surveillance... doesnt sound good to me.
[/quote]
the GPS tracking is what absolutely [i]kills[/i] me! seriously?! it's not illegal for a governmental employee to affix a GPS device to my car to track my whereabouts? and i don't believe the BS about it saving taxpayer dollars by freeing up agents from 'stake-outs'. BALONEY!