Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309557347' post='2261755'] Yet another demonstration of respect from a "Church Militant". [/quote] He's much nicer in person, really. Back to the topic at hand, it's hard to defend the Catholic definition of marriage to the public at large when so many of the politicians -who use the "sanctity of marriage" as a campaign slogan- cheat on their spouses (or have multiple divorces or other violations of their vows). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I agree that by losing the meaning of marriage and having a nearly complete break down of the family in society has confused the issue so much as to make 'defense of marriage' sound...quaint. If we have no fault divorce, if we have commonplace cohabitation without the benefit of marriage...what is left to defend? Sorry for that downer.... As for the original article, the author is trying to be clever. The whole thing boils down to 'Politicians can ignore the bishops because no one really agrees with them anyway - not even the Catholics.' It's a snide put down that relies on skewed statistics - because I agree that including Catholic-in-name-only voters in the poll skews the numbers away from what 'practicing Catholics' would say....though practicing Catholics are by no means 100% with the bishops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I posted this on another thread, but it is appropriate here as well. The position of the Roman Catholic Church that homosexuality is "disordered" is something that we could debate for quite some time. The greater danger is that people use that position to hate and discriminate against homosexuals outside of the Church. I would like all you "Church Militants" and "Church Scholars" take note, this is from [url="http://www.cardinalseansblog.org/2011/06/17/"]Cardinal O'Malley's Blog[/url]: "[b]As Catholics, we must oppose the hatred and rejection of homosexual persons that exists in our society. We do not want them to be the object of discrimination or violence.[/b] We believe, however, that God’s law is written in our hearts and that to lead a fully human life we need to embrace His commandments. This is not always easy, we all struggle and sometimes we fail; but a loving and forgiving God is always there to lift us up and help us start over again." (emphasis mine) He continues: "The Church’s position is not based on an animus against people with a homosexual orientation. Each and every member of the Church is called to holiness regardless of their sexual orientation. [b]The Church has often warned against defining people by their sexual orientation in a way that diminishes their humanity.[/b] Each person is a mystery, an irreplaceable treasure, precious in God’s eye. We are God’s creatures and in baptism we are His sons and daughters, brothers and sisters to one another. The extreme individualism of our age is undermining the common good and fractionalizing the community. The Church wishes to call people to unity based on mutual respect and a commitment to the common good. We do not want Catholics who have a homosexual orientation to feel unwelcomed in the Catholic Church. We remind them that they are bound to us by their baptism and are called to live a life of holiness. Many homosexual persons in our Church lead holy lives and make an outstanding contribution to the life of the Church by their service, generosity and the sharing of their spiritual gifts. [b]We must strive to eradicate prejudices against people with a homosexual orientation.[/b] At the same time the Church must minister to all people by challenging them to obey God’s commands, the roadmap for a meaningful human life that allows us to draw near to God and to one another. In the Gospel when the self-righteous Pharisees bring the adulteress to be stoned, Jesus says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Then to make sure they got the point Jesus wrote their sins on the ground. The stones fell from their hands and they fled. Jesus said: 'Neither do I condemn you', but He added, 'Go and sin no more.'" (emphasis mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309557347' post='2261755'] Yet another demonstration of respect from a "Church Militant". [/quote] My tag says "Church Militant," not "Church Sap." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309558692' post='2261759'] Frankly, I think bullying, harassment, and discrimination in a workplace should not be allowed, period, no matter what. If you don't want to protect one class of people, you shouldn't seek to protect any. I do not condone what the Church so clearly prohibits by expecting that these people be treated with common decency. To remove means of financial support (which provides for their basic needs) is WRONG. I can't believe you're actually defending workplace discrimination... Perhaps I have missed something from the Church which prohibits lesbians and gays from the dignity of work? If so, please point it out. [/quote] I don't support bullying or harassment of anybody in the workplace. I just have problems with a form of immoral sexual behavior being given special protected legal status on the same level as race (which has nothing to do with behavior). I just think it is a legal two-edged sword for reasons such as I and others mentioned. It in essence gives homosexuals protected status not granted others. Such laws can create problems in some circumstances where one's sexual behavior can be a legitimate issue - such as a Catholic school hiring a teacher for a class on sexual morality, or for role-model positions such as Scout leaders and such, or even for Seminarians to be ordained to the priesthood, in which those who are actively homosexual, or have deep-seated tendencies are not supposed to be admitted. (There may be exceptions to anti-discrimination laws in such cases - I'd have to research - but legally this does tend to be a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line?) And it's not exactly like homosexuals were all starving to death in this country prior to such laws. While such laws may have legitimate benefits to people, I think they present some problems as well. Let's not twist what I actually wrote. [quote]This just shows our differences in experience. So many of the people with whom I attend Mass (several times a week) are so vehemently opposed to some basic teachings of the Church, I sometimes don't even know where to begin in discussion with them (about those topics). These are the men and women attending Bible studies every week, singing Latin in our church choir, reading at Mass, and as I already said, attending Mass several times weekly. These are the (well-known) faces of my parish and the parishes all around us. My experience includes a picture which is not so perfect...[/quote] People's experiences are going to be different in every parish. I've mostly been in "conservative" parishes, but I'm well aware the situation is not so good everywhere, and I certainly never claimed things were perfect in the Church. I have read about surveys which showed that Catholics who attended Mass weekly or more were, as a group, significantly more likely to agree with the Church on "social issues" such as abortion and homosexual issues, than Catholics who attend mass less frequently or not at all. To me, that makes perfect sense, and should hardly be shocking. And polls such as the one cited, do not distinguish between serious, weekly Mass attending Catholics, and self-identified Catholics who rarely or never attend Mass or the sacraments, and thus do not present a completely accurate picture of the beliefs of active Catholics. That's my only point - not that everything was rosy and perfect among Mass-going Catholics. Please try to address what I actually wrote before you respond to me again. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309730436' post='2262770'] I don't support bullying or harassment of anybody in the workplace. I just have problems with a form of immoral sexual behavior being given special protected legal status on the same level as race (which has nothing to do with behavior). [/quote] A homosexual cannot change his/her orientation anymore than a black person can change their color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309731792' post='2262776'] A homosexual cannot change his/her orientation anymore than a black person can change their color. [/quote] Wrong. They can and have. There's been plenty of documented cases that have been brought up, linked to, and discussed on here in the past. (I'm not going to bother to look them up now because I'm lazy.) Homosexuality is a pattern of behavior, not a race. People successfully change their patterns of behavior in other areas of life all the time, so there's no reason for shock or unbelief about it being done in the area of sexuality. Edited July 4, 2011 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309803424' post='2263064'] Homosexuality is a pattern of behavior, not a race. People successfully changed their patterns of behavior in other areas of life all the time, so there's no reason for shock or unbelief about it being done in the area of sexuality. [/quote] Right. With a little time and practice you could be gay as a daffodil and having all kind of fun on Fire Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309731792' post='2262776'] A homosexual cannot change his/her orientation anymore than a black person can change their color. [/quote] Not okay. I"m so sick of people equating being gay to being Black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoylentGreene Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about Catholic politicians supporting by action or inaction gay 'marriage'. They've been supporting divorce, contraception, abortion and other gravely immoral acts for a long time. Gay marriage is a red herring; the real danger to our society is divorce. It's not gay marriage that is the cause of our societal decline- the cause is our moral permissiveness on things like divorce and contraception. Gay marriage is a symptom not a cause. Treat the cause of the disease and the symptoms will be alleviated. Homosexual acts are not just a pattern of behavior , they are gravely immoral and sinful acts that extinguish the life of grace in a soul. Therefore they can never be legitimately tolerated or condoned. Edited July 5, 2011 by SoylentGreene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 [quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1309896448' post='2263318'] I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about Catholic politicians supporting by action or inaction gay 'marriage'. They've been supporting divorce, contraception, abortion and other gravely immoral acts for a long time. Gay marriage is a red herring; the real danger to our society is divorce. It's not gay marriage that is the cause of our societal decline- the cause is our moral permissiveness on things like divorce and contraception. Gay marriage is a symptom not a cause. Treat the cause of the disease and the symptoms will be alleviated. [/quote] I would say the real disease is our total misunderstanding of marriage, and divorce, abortion etc are all causes of that effect. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 [quote name='SoylentGreene' timestamp='1309896448' post='2263318'] I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about Catholic politicians supporting by action or inaction gay 'marriage'. They've been supporting divorce, contraception, abortion and other gravely immoral acts for a long time. Gay marriage is a red herring; the real danger to our society is divorce. It's not gay marriage that is the cause of our societal decline- the cause is our moral permissiveness on things like divorce and contraception. Gay marriage is a symptom not a cause. Treat the cause of the disease and the symptoms will be alleviated. Homosexual acts are not just a pattern of behavior , they are gravely immoral and sinful acts that extinguish the life of grace in a soul. Therefore they can never be legitimately tolerated or condoned. [/quote] Homosexual acts are no different than any other sexual act that occurs outside of the confines of Holy Matrimony. You'd be wise not to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309542867' post='2261646'] Makes me almost miss the latin mass debates, Almost. [/quote] Don't even tempt me. I will go there at the slightest provocation. Edited July 6, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309897768' post='2263329'] Homosexual acts are no different than any other sexual act that occurs outside of the confines of Holy Matrimony. You'd be wise not to think otherwise. [/quote] [img]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/1/24/thatiswhyyo128456750776093750.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1309937392' post='2263535'] [img]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/1/24/thatiswhyyo128456750776093750.jpg[/img] [/quote] Where is my failure, my newly-engaged frenemy? (Congrats, on the real)... How is homosexual sex worse than heterosexual non-marital sex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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