Elected Officials’ Catholic Dilemma On Same-Sex Marriage

[katholikkid]

[font="arial"][size="2"][b][left][size="1"][color="#000000"][color="#000000"][size="2"]It wouldn't come as a shock if New York politicians are starting to sweat--not from the summer heat, but from worry about the political fallout from this week's legislative vote to make New York the sixth state, in addition to the District of Columbia, to legalize same-sex marriage. After all, [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/ny-catholic-bishop-shun-lawmakers-over-gay-marriage-vote/2011/06/27/AGqe1VnH_blog.html#pagebreak"]New York's Catholic Bishops have expressed outrage over the vote[/url], and nearly 40 percent of New York voters are Catholic. But, the polls show a surprising reality that may ease the worries of some elected officials even as it makes their job harder. There are in fact two very different Catholic voices that elected officials in New York and elsewhere around the country have to navigate: the big "C" voice of the Catholic bishops who are adamantly opposed to same-sex marriage, and the little "c" voices of Catholics in the pews who are largely supportive.[/size][/color]

[color="#000000"] [/color]

[color="#000000"][size="2"]In fact, rank-and-file Catholics are generally more supportive of legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than Americans overall. A May 2011 survey by Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) found 56 percent of Catholics favor allowing gay and lesbian people to marry, compared to 51 percent in the general population. These numbers are not anomalies. Survey after survey show majority support for legal recognition of same-sex relationships among Catholics. A March 2011[url="http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/1121a6%20Gay%20Marriage.PDF"]ABC/Washington Post poll [/url]found 6[url="http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/1121a6%20Gay%20Marriage.PDF"]0 percent of Catholics support marriage for same-sex couples[/url], compared to 53 percent of the general population. A[url="http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/faith-in-numbers/2011/02/new_york_state_of_mind_bush_daughter_catholics_support_allowing_ny_same-sex_couples_to_marry.html"] January 2011 Quinnipiac University survey[/url] found[url="http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/faith-in-numbers/2011/02/new_york_state_of_mind_bush_daughter_catholics_support_allowing_ny_same-sex_couples_to_marry.html"] 52 percent of New York Catholic voters support allowing same-sex couples to marry[/url], compared to 56 percent of all New York voters.[/size][/color]

[color="#000000"][size="2"]Support is strong across the board for gay and lesbian rights among Catholics. More than seven-in-10 (73 percent) Catholics support laws that would protect gay and lesbian people against discrimination in the workplace, and 60 percent of Catholics favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to adopt children. There's also a large theological gulf between official church teachings and rank-and-file Catholics: a solid majority (56 percent) of Catholics--10 points higher than the general population—say sex between two adults of the same gender is not a sin.[/size][/color]

[color="#000000"][size="2"]These stark differences pose a dilemma for politicians who are trying to discern the Catholic voice in their districts on the issues of same-sex marriage and other rights for gay and lesbian Americans. With the bishops sending one message and lay Catholics sending another, politicians may have the unenviable task of choosing between the official capital "C" Church hierarchy represented by the bishops and the lower case "c" church represented by the laity.[/size][/color]

[color="#555555"][size="2"][left]By [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/robert-p-jones/2011/03/10/AB8dZXQ_page.html"]Robert P. Jones[/url] | 10:19 PM ET, 06/30/2011 --The Washington Post[/left][/size][/color]

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Edited July 1, 2011 by katholikkid

[katholikkid]

It's just an interesting perspective of how tough it is to be a Catholic politician these days...any thoughts?

[thessalonian]

One thing to keep in mind regarding when polls use the term "Catholics" they don't distinguish between those who go to church and those who don't. Less than 50% of those who call themselves Catholic go to Church. I would like to see these polls identify those who go to Church as the numbers would certainly be better.

[Socrates]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1309531894' post='2261558']
It's just an interesting perspective of how tough it is to be a Catholic politician these days...any thoughts?
[/quote]
Yeah, they have it so tough. Having to take all that flack from those awful bishops for their courageous politically-correct positions on "gay marriage" and such. I weep big tears for them.

Maybe if they'd be Catholics first and politicians second, rather than vice-versa . . . .

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1309538382' post='2261606']
One thing to keep in mind regarding when polls use the term "Catholics" they don't distinguish between those who go to church and those who don't. Less than 50% of those who call themselves Catholic go to Church. I would like to see these polls identify those who go to Church as the numbers would certainly be better.
[/quote]
Yeah, anybody who self-identifies as "Catholic" when asked their religion on some poll is a "rank-and-file" Catholic - though it more often than not means that they were baptized Catholic as an infant, and may or may not have ever attended Mass since then, and haven't bothered officially converting to another religion or atheism.

There is now no such thing as a "Catholic vote." Most of these "cafeteria Catholic" types are simply non-descript liberals, who may harbor a special fondness for the Kennedies and green beer on St. Paddy's Day.

Polls that actually distinguish Catholics that attend Mass weekly show those folks to be much more conservative, especially on the moral issues.

The Washington Post is an excellent rag, though . . . for wiping one's self with.


And, KatholicKid, what's with all the gay threads?

Edited July 1, 2011 by Socrates

[franciscanheart]

1. I am against discrimination in the workplace. NO ONE should be discriminated against. Anywhere. Period.

2. Not everyone who attends Mass weekly (or even daily) is completely submissive to the teachings of the Church. Don't live in a bubble, people.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309539993' post='2261624']
1. I am against discrimination in the workplace. NO ONE should be discriminated against. Anywhere. Period.

2. Not everyone who attends Mass weekly (or even daily) is completely submissive to the teachings of the Church. Don't live in a bubble, people.
[/quote]


I certainly did not mean to say that all those who do attend mass are lock step with the church. Just adding perspective to the polls. Believe me I have run in to plently of liberals who do attend mass. I am far from nieve on such matters.

I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them. All this nonsense about not allowing gay marriage as discrimination is nutz.

[katholikkid]

I have a news feed that catches the word 'catholic' from my subscriptions to numerous publications and from all I've read it has been a hug topic for the Church in America this past week. I am sure when 'March for Life' season comes that will get headlines. Just keeping in touch with the Church in the world that's all. Pax Christi.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309539993' post='2261624']
1. I am against discrimination in the workplace. NO ONE should be discriminated against. Anywhere. Period.

2. Not everyone who attends Mass weekly (or even daily) is completely submissive to the teachings of the Church. Don't live in a bubble, people.
[/quote]

So[b] franciscanheart[/b], in the other "discussion" you said [i]"I'm sorry you've felt attacked here. While some of our members can be much more hostile and uptight when discussing these issues, some aren't so much!! Like me. I'm not hostile. See? "[/i] Now when [b]thessalonian[/b] says,[i] "I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them."[/i] do you stand up? Do you chastise him? Or do you allow him to spread that kind of filth?

When someone like that fellow attacks me or[b] Debra Little[/b] in these discussions do you stand up for us? Do you stand up for our right to present reasoned arguments this fellow might not agree with? Or do you and your fellow "Church Militants" throw us to the wolves.

I already know the answer. It doesn't matter how "nice" you are if you will not stand up against bigotry and hate. Personally, I think standing up against bigotry and hate is the Christian thing to do.

By the way, you wanted a private conversation with me? Well, I cannot access private conversations and I can no longer access my profile. Thank you very much.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Lumiere

[sixpence]

what is the recent OBSESSION with Gay rights threads????

Just wondering... it seems like we have repeated the same stuff in like... 5 threads already... I'm all up for discussing... but so much repetition... o well

[Socrates]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309539993' post='2261624']
1. I am against discrimination in the workplace. NO ONE should be discriminated against. Anywhere. Period.[/quote]
Legally codifying "sexual orientation" as a protected category can open a whole ugly can of worms, so I don't see it as an unreservedly good thing. For instance, it makes it too easy for anyone homosexual to claim discrimination even if the issue in reality has nothing to do with sexuality. Thus disordered sexuality becomes a specially legally-protected class.

[quote]2. Not everyone who attends Mass weekly (or even daily) is completely submissive to the teachings of the Church. Don't live in a bubble, people.[/quote]
Never claimed that. I'm quite aware there are liberal regular Mass-goers, even plenty of liberal priests. However, polls have shown that the population of Catholics who attend Mass weekly (and thus are really serious about their Faith) tend to be much more the "conservative" on the "social issues" (homosexuality. abortion, etc.) than the broader "Catholic" population. (And those who attend Mass more than once a week tend to be more "conservative" still.)

My point is that polls such as the one cited make no distinction between Mass-attending seriously practicing Catholics, and non-practicing CINOs for whom the Faith is little more than a vague ethnic identity. Thus, the results are skewed and make out religious Catholics to be much more liberal than they really are.

The secular media still doesn't seem to get there no longer is a Catholic block-vote (though I wish there were such a vote if it reflected actual Catholic moral teaching). There may have been a "Catholic vote" 50-60 years ago, but not today.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1309542674' post='2261642']
what is the recent OBSESSION with Gay rights threads????

Just wondering... it seems like we have repeated the same stuff in like... 5 threads already... I'm all up for discussing... but so much repetition... o well
[/quote]
Makes me almost miss the latin mass debates, Almost.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309542084' post='2261638']
So[b] franciscanheart[/b], in the other "discussion" you said [i]"I'm sorry you've felt attacked here. While some of our members can be much more hostile and uptight when discussing these issues, some aren't so much!! Like me. I'm not hostile. See? "[/i] Now when [b]thessalonian[/b] says,[i] "I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them."[/i] do you stand up? Do you chastise him? Or do you allow him to spread that kind of filth?

When someone like that fellow attacks me or[b] Debra Little[/b] in these discussions do you stand up for us? Do you stand up for our right to present reasoned arguments this fellow might not agree with? Or do you and your fellow "Church Militants" throw us to the wolves.

I already know the answer. It doesn't matter how "nice" you are if you will not stand up against bigotry and hate. Personally, I think standing up against bigotry and hate is the Christian thing to do.

By the way, you wanted a private conversation with me? Well, I cannot access private conversations and I can no longer access my profile. Thank you very much.
[/quote]
Cry me a river.

[sixpence]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309542084' post='2261638']
[i]"[/i] Now when [b]thessalonian[/b] says,[i] "I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them."[/i] do you stand up? Do you chastise him? Or do you allow him to spread that kind of filth?

[/quote]

..but yeh i would agree... I don't think it is right to discriminate in the work place in this case... (in general).... I could see a number of exceptions however... for example, I would not hire the individual to work for a parish or "Catholic" job... but in the office or whatever... sure...

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309542950' post='2261648']
Cry me a river.
[/quote]

Yet another demonstration of respect from a "Church Militant".

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309542826' post='2261645']
Legally codifying "sexual orientation" as a protected category can open a whole ugly can of worms, so I don't see it as an unreservedly good thing. For instance, it makes it too easy for anyone homosexual to claim discrimination even if the issue in reality has nothing to do with sexuality. Thus disordered sexuality becomes a specially legally-protected class.
[/quote]
Frankly, I think bullying, harassment, and discrimination in a workplace should not be allowed, period, no matter what. If you don't want to protect one class of people, you shouldn't seek to protect any. I do not condone what the Church so clearly prohibits by expecting that these people be treated with common decency. To remove means of financial support (which provides for their basic needs) is WRONG. I can't believe you're actually defending workplace discrimination...

Perhaps I have missed something from the Church which prohibits lesbians and gays from the dignity of work? If so, please point it out.


[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309542826' post='2261645']
Never claimed that. I'm quite aware there are liberal regular Mass-goers, even plenty of liberal priests. However, polls have shown that the population of Catholics who attend Mass weekly (and thus are really serious about their Faith) tend to be much more the "conservative" on the "social issues" (homosexuality. abortion, etc.) than the broader "Catholic" population. (And those who attend Mass more than once a week tend to be more "conservative" still.)

My point is that polls such as the one cited make no distinction between Mass-attending seriously practicing Catholics, and non-practicing CINOs for whom the Faith is little more than a vague ethnic identity. Thus, the results are skewed and make out religious Catholics to be much more liberal than they really are.
[/quote]
This just shows our differences in experience. So many of the people with whom I attend Mass (several times a week) are so vehemently opposed to some basic teachings of the Church, I sometimes don't even know where to begin in discussion with them (about those topics). These are the men and women attending Bible studies every week, singing Latin in our church choir, reading at Mass, and as I already said, attending Mass several times weekly. These are the (well-known) faces of my parish and the parishes all around us. My experience includes a picture which is not so perfect...


[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309542950' post='2261648']
Cry me a river.
[/quote]