Gay Bullying Is "peer Pressure"

[Papist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309460774' post='2261009']
Bullying is kind of an umbrella term. Gay bullying is just one of the spokes. And there is ABSOLUTELY "fat bullying" and "acne bullying." Go to any middle or high school in America, and you'll absolutely find that there's a fat kid getting picked on, or someone with severe acne getting called names. I can tell you this because a) I was the fat kid (until I started playing football, in which case I became a "jock," which made it "cool" and acceptable to be overweight) and b) my sister was the acne kid (not anymore...she grew out of the stage and now looks like one of the models in those facial wash commercials!).

The point is that kids are mean, and will be mean about anything they can get their hands on. The insidious part of gay bullying is that, as opposed to weight or acne, these things cannot be changed. They can't hit the gym, join a club or take medicine and be un-gay; rather, they are being attack for something instrinsic to their identity. It's no different than racism, where someone's nationality or ethnicity is used as a reason to hate them.
[/quote]
Change is possible. I witnessed it.

[kujo]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309460123' post='2260992']
For example, I think it's perfectly acceptable to consider the sexual preference of a person if you are considering them to teach a class on sexual morality, or say, hire them to be a trainer on an all male sports team.
[/quote]

It's interesting that you bring that up. My girlfriend is a receptionist at a high-end body waxing boutique. They cater mostly to women, but provide a limited amount of services to men--face, back, chest, arms, lower legs. They don't offer the Brazilian or bikini waxes because it would be "inappropriate" for their waxers (all women) to be doing that sort of thing to the man.

On the other hand, I wonder whether how they would deal with a lesbian client, or a lesbian waxer? Isn't that "inappropriate" for the same reason?

Just a thought...

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309460205' post='2260994']
It is not ambiguous but has to be generalized because you just can't foresee every possible case in a catechism, just like civil and canon law can't possibly foresee every possible case that will be before the court. For instance, it is right to reject homosexual partners from adopting children, but never okay to make fun of them or bully them. If a Catholic befriends and counsels someone struggling with same sex attraction that is not bullying, but there are plenty of ways in which people can be mean to someone struggling with what could either be a mental illness, addiction, or other problem in their life.
[/quote]

Agreed, but, as I pointed out above in my response to Havok, the words "unjust," "should," and "avoided" aren't nearly as clear-cut and precise as the intention behind them is. It's clear, IMHO, that the Church is saying "Hey, don't do this." But someone else (I can think of a few PMers, actually) who would pull the whole "fraternal correction" and "true charity" nonsense while acting like total jerks. The Church could come down definitively on the matter. They haven't....at least not to my knowledge.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309460427' post='2261001']
How would you word it?
[/quote]

"Discrimination, ridicule and mean-spirited denunciations are the opposite of charity."

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309461137' post='2261020']
Change is possible. I witnessed it.
[/quote]

I don't know whether change is possible or not. What I do know is this--neither you, nor I or anybody else, can truly know the mind or the heart of another individual. All we see are facades, approximations of whatever that person decides to share. Whether that person was ever truly gay, or is currently gay or straight, can never be known.

[Papist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309461355' post='2261026']
I don't know whether change is possible or not. What I do know is this--neither you, nor I or anybody else, can truly know the mind or the heart of another individual. All we see are facades, approximations of whatever that person decides to share. Whether that person was ever truly gay, or is currently gay or straight, can never be known.
[/quote]
Agreed. Violence, which is unjust force, is always wrong...PERIOD! That fact the person is gay is irrelevant. Even if I don't like the person being bullied, I must come to his defense to fight the injustice. If I stand there with my finger up my nose, it is a sin[i.e. SLOTH].

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309461715' post='2261035']
Agreed. Violence, which is unjust force, is always wrong...PERIOD! That fact the person is gay is irrelevant. Even if I don't like the person being bullied, I must come to his defense to fight the injustice. If I stand there with my finger up my nose, it is a sin[i.e. SLOTH].
[/quote]

What about emotional violence? Such as telling someone they are "disordered" or that they're going to "burn in hell?"

[Debra Little]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309459031' post='2260972']
According to Tea Party Nation leader Rich Swier:



Source: [url="http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nations-anti-gay-campaign-continues-group-likens-gays-drug-addicts"]RightWingWatch.com[/url]

I tried to access the [url="http://www.teapartynation.com/profiles/blog/show?id=3355873%3ABlogPost%3A1022447&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_post"]original statement[/url], but I'd have to sign up for the website, and I'm not willing to do that.

So, what say you, Phamily?
[/quote]

It is not peer pressure. Try to undertand.

[Winchester]

Too vague.

Of course, it's considered "hate" to merely disapprove of homosexual acts so we're off the reservation, anyway.

[sixpence]

Side note::

Bullying is clearly wrong.... I would put it in the category of harassment; clearly unfriendly behavior

Peer pressure on the other hand might be positive... for example... a group of friends may strongly suggest that their peer should quit smoking in order to protect their health... I would call this peer pressure but I would not call it wrong... it CAN be more like constructive criticism... or it can be a bad thing... ex. encouraging friends to participate in immoral actions... but overall I would not say that "peer pressure is wrong (in and of itself)"

[kujo]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1309463736' post='2261067']
Of course, it's considered "hate" to merely disapprove of homosexual acts so we're off the reservation, anyway.
[/quote]

You can put your perpetual victim hat on if you'd like, but I think there is a difference between merely disapproving of homosexuality (a silly but benign opinion) and calling someone "disordered" and an "abomination."

[kujo]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1309463944' post='2261075']
Side note::

Bullying is clearly wrong.... I would put it in the category of harassment; clearly unfriendly behavior

Peer pressure on the other hand might be positive... for example... a group of friends may strongly suggest that their peer should quit smoking in order to protect their health... I would call this peer pressure but I would not call it wrong... it CAN be more like constructive criticism... or it can be a bad thing... ex. encouraging friends to participate in immoral actions... but overall I would not say that "peer pressure is wrong (in and of itself)"
[/quote]

That's a fair statement.

It's like a gun. A gun can be used to protect yourself from harm or to hunt and provide food for yourself and family. It can also be used to kill innocent children.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463979' post='2261078']
You can put your perpetual victim hat on if you'd like, but I think there is a difference between merely disapproving of homosexuality (a silly but benign opinion) and calling someone "disordered" and an "abomination."
[/quote]
Homosexuality is disordered in that the person' affection is directed to someone other than what is considered natural - the opposite sex. No one is an abomination.

[sixpence]

Now.. if I walked up to a random gay person and told him I think he has mental problems.... I could see where that might be considered harassment...

However, if I had a pretty good friend and I discovered that he was an active homosexual, and (out of concern) for him I expressed concern and told him I thought that this was unhealthy and immoral... would you call that bullying? I would not... it would be just the same as expressing concern to a straight friend who was engaging in premarital sex... would you call that bullying?

Openly disapproving of someones lifestyle does not = bullying; you can easily MAKE it bullying but it doesn't have to be (and it shouldn't be)

[kujo]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1309464686' post='2261097']
Openly disapproving of someones lifestyle does not = bullying; you can easily MAKE it bullying but it doesn't have to be (and it shouldn't be)
[/quote]

Correct. You are talking about pastoral ministry whereas some (they'll probably sign on later from Virginia and post their filth on this thread) believe in "calling it like it is" and "speaking the truth" and what not. They are hateful people who don't know or show God's love. THEY are the bullies. What you speak of is NOT.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463979' post='2261078']
You can put your perpetual victim hat on if you'd like, but I think there is a difference between merely disapproving of homosexuality (a silly but benign opinion) and calling someone "disordered" and an "abomination."
[/quote]
I didn't say I was a victim, nor do I consider myself a victim. I merely pointed out the asinine usage of the term "hate."


I do believe both terms you're on about are applied to human acts, not to humans themselves, in Church Doctrine.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309462391' post='2261040']
What about emotional violence? Such as telling someone they are "disordered" or that they're going to "burn in hell?"
[/quote]

As stated, violence implies unjust behavior. There is such a thing as emotional violence, and it can take those forms, but that emo violence doesn't take place every time these words are uttered. A priest with the right intentions can certainly say those things if it's best for that person's soul.

Charity doesn't always mean being nice. Sometimes it means saying what doesn't want to be heard, because the truth is difficult to hear.

With that in mind, I'm going to start praying for you. I fear that you might be close enough to the edge that you might make yourself a heretic and be thereby automatically excommunicated. I'm not sure I've yet seen anything contrary to Catholic Moral Teaching (just Catholic Moral Law), but you're getting close. I'm praying for you, my friend.