Can Somebody Just Weep With Me?

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309616166' post='2262102']
but I've got my limits, too.
[/quote]

And that is where grace comes in.

I'm pretty new to PM (But I have read most of the posts in the last 6 weeks), so I have little-to-no-room to talk. But I was pretty blown away at the harshness towards Cam. Yeah, I see your point on the lack of tact and over-generalities, but don't see much here when talking about him. But again I was here before 6 weeks ago, so probably much more to the story. But from an outside perspective, just seems a bit over the top.

Anyway PAX

[Jaime]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309616166' post='2262102']
I probably shouldn't have used "pimping" - "defending," or "going to bat for," or other choices would have done just as well. It was late, and I was tired & somewhat upset.

I do pray for Cam every day - by name - when I pray for the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, theologians, philosophers, preachers, catechists, and teachers, and for vocations. I include all the Phatmassers in that prayer, too.

I believe in forgiveness, too - been Catholic all my life. The problem for me is how to balance forgiveness with the old adage that tigers don't change their stripes. My folks worked & worked & worked with - and forgave & forgave & forgave - my brother that wound up dying in the car accident because he was high - they never gave up on him until he died. Maybe that should be my approach here, but it's not - Cam's not my son, I feel connected to him by faith & charity & all that, but I've got my limits, too.
[/quote]

I get that Luigi. I really do. We all have our personal hurts that adds flaws to our lives. there are folks on PM that I haven't gotten along with. With some we've made our apologies and moved on. With some it hasn't happened yet and it may never happen. That's a part of life. So if individuals on this site have a hard time forgiving Cam, I have some empathy towards that. If this was not a Catholic site, I wouldn't say a word. The bigger problem that I have is with those who have been charged with running the place. dUSt wants this place to be a ministry tool for conversion. I spent 10 years working professionally in ministry and the one thing that I learned is forgiveness is at the very core of our Church. When I was in youth ministry I had to set an example of forgiveness even when it was hard. Because it was my job to set the example. There were times when that was the hardest thing I had to do. There are some who run this place that genuinely set an example of forgiveness. But dUSt, Franciscanheart and some others that did not. And being in charge means that you have to set an example. My friendship with Cam, dUSt and some of the mods put me in a unique position. I was able to assure them that Cam was sincere with his desire to change and to be forgiven. Some chose to do so and some did not. dUSt and Franciscanheart decided to show their lack of forgiveness publicly in this thread.

Its easy to forgive the people we like. Even the heathens can do that!! Christ calls us to do more.

I'm very sorry about your brother Luigi. That is a heartbreaking story and I'm sorry that you have to live with that.

[MithLuin]

In my opinion, [b]Cam[/b] was fun to talk to and rile up (because you always knew he would take the bait), and he was knowledgable enough to have good input on topics.

Also in my opinion, he had a habit of derailing threads. Not only would he bring things around to his favorite topics, but he'd bring them around to [i]himself[/i] as a topic. A discussion of appropriate attire at mass in the context of Life Teen could easily give rise to a list of what is meant by 'Sunday best'. But why did it involve pictures of him in liturgical garb at a Latin mass? That wasn't the only thread where he posted such pictures. A discussion of what types of hymns people prefer at mass would be derailed with an argument that hymns have no business being part of the mass anyway. I've only come across posts by Cam recently (in the past few weeks), so I'm not sure what all the history is. But strangely enough, I know that he was in seminary, I know that he's attended mass in over 10 different languages (I'm sorry, 'assisted at'), I know that he studied in Rome..... [I will add that this particular thread being derailed with a discussion of him is not really his fault.]

His posting style was abrasive, and he used a triumphant tone to bully those who disagreed with him. Or called their mental health into question. He was tenacious, and seldom backed down. So, the only way the thread/conversation would stop being an argument would be if others stopped arguing with him. He was here to debate with other Catholics, so the Catholic vs Catholic debate ban was not going to work for him.

Phatmass is a community, and I don't feel [b]dUSt[/b] should feel obligated to accept everyone who wants to be a part of that community. At the very least, a long cooling off period seems indicated. As Christians, we must forgive. But also as Christians, we must be willing to accept our penances as the consequences for our sin. True, I've never been banned from a website. I don't know what that's like. It probably hurts. I've been chastized for posts occasionally (here and elsewhere), and accepted the edits (while apologizing and not saying the same again). If someone does not respond to requests for changing their behavior, asking them to leave is the reasonable reaction. Forgiving doesn't mean allowing your community to be overrun. I agree that the hallmark of a Christian community is that it welcomes everyone...literally...but not everyone can remain in the community without changing.

Generally, I would not say something so publically about someone who cannot defend himself. So, I'm probably out of line myself. But I did (more or less) enjoy my discussions with Cam in the past week or so, and felt I should say that not everyone found him simply hurtful.

[Luigi]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309629939' post='2262160']
I'm very sorry about your brother Luigi. That is a heartbreaking story and I'm sorry that you have to live with that.
[/quote]

Thanks, but .. the two of us didn't get along. At all. However, I do admire my folks' perseverance, and their love. Their forgiveness was not, however, productive.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Forgiveness is one thing... but it doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, rebuke someone out for repeated un-Christian behavior. The same behavior for which once was asked forgiveness.

Perhaps some were harsh to Cam- I don't know. I do know that he came in here with an attitude. Then he began to mock everyone. Asked for forgiveness. And then began posting with an incredible lack of charity. I honestly don't think anyone was holding anything against Cam that was prior to his apology. The rebukes were for continued lack of charity.

This is all tough... I don't like what has happened, but I'm not sure it was avoidable. All I know is that continued prayers are needed, for all involved.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309664403' post='2262452']
Forgiveness is one thing... but it doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, rebuke someone out for repeated un-Christian behavior. The same behavior for which once was asked forgiveness.
[/quote]
This. Contrition is not contrition without the intention to correct one's faults.

[BG45]

I know I looked at his blog to see if he said anything, and he did...ad nauseam. Not linking to it, but I had to say I lost almost any pity I might've had when I realized he had locked his blog post about it all so no one could dare say a word against him. Every other post on the blog is comment enabled.

[faithcecelia]

I would have loved to have had more discussions with him, I really respect his knowledge and am very grateful for his constructive comments and advice on my thread about my first Tridentine Mass. However, I admit I had been very hesitant about posting it as I knew he would respond, and on virtually every other thread where we had both commented, he had accused me of heresy! My faith is such that this does not unsettle me, and indeed had become a running joke with some of my priest friends, but it is the sort of thing that could easily have upset someone, and is the sort of thing that can lead to people leaving the Church.

[Jaime]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1309680935' post='2262547']
I would have loved to have had more discussions with him, I really respect his knowledge and am very grateful for his constructive comments and advice on my thread about my first Tridentine Mass. However, I admit I had been very hesitant about posting it as I knew he would respond, and on virtually every other thread where we had both commented, he had accused me of heresy! My faith is such that this does not unsettle me, and indeed had become a running joke with some of my priest friends, but it is the sort of thing that could easily have upset someone, and is the sort of thing that can lead to people leaving the Church.
[/quote]

To be clear, he did not accuse you of heresy or being a heretic. You were making a statement that was in line with a heretical teaching. You were in fact speaking a heresy as defined by the Church. But that is a huge and vast difference from being accused of heresy. I know people who were defending their dissertation for a PhD in Theology who have unintentionally done something similar to what you did.

But my point is not to defend Cam's prior actions. My point is to point out where forgiveness was lacking by role models and others on Phatmass

[Noel's angel]

When are we going to drop this? He's gone. He was at one point a very positive influence here, that changed, and now he's gone. Let's move on.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Noel's angel

[IcePrincessKRS]

I'm sorry, but I don't see where it is fruitful or beneficial to continue talking about Cam like this. I am closing this thread, it's clearly no longer about a renovated Church.