Can Somebody Just Weep With Me?

[MarisStella]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268']
Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please, I beg of you. Perhaps Bob Marley instead.


[/quote]

Hahaha, I love that song!

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268']
Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please


[/quote]

I sing that to the boy I nanny

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268']
Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please, I beg of you. Perhaps Bob Marley instead.
[/quote]



[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/SUAKMbTY69I/AAAAAAAAD1Q/4OJg3HEGgJg/s320/Chaotic_Evil_Barney.jpg[/img]

[BG45]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1309480091' post='2261312']


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/SUAKMbTY69I/AAAAAAAAD1Q/4OJg3HEGgJg/s320/Chaotic_Evil_Barney.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

You rock.

[Donna]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309406616' post='2260641']
Sister, you need to stop weeping and start fighting! Join the restoration movement, support your local Traditional Latin Mass in union with Rome!
[/quote]

Weeping is the prerequisite to soldiery imo.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1309482082' post='2261335']
You rock.
[/quote]

Why thank you.

[Noel's angel]

Its easier to see the tabernacle in no. 2 because it's in colour, on a background of white. In black and grey, it wouldn't stand out half as much. However, I do believe the renovations were tastefully done - whether or not there was any need to do some of what they have done remains to be seen, but it is still a very beautiful church.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Noel's angel

[Jaime]

So let's sum up the thread derailment

[b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309408193' post='2260655']
Can someone point me to a place where the justification for destroying that church legitimately exists? The iconoclasm that was just exhibited is deplorable...

I will weep a thousand tears over the loss of such a beautiful church.
[/quote] [/b]
Nobody is being called out. Cam is agreeing with OP. (Crazy I know!) The definition of Iconoclasm is is t[i][b]he deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives.[/b][/i] THAT WAS WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES! Again He's agreeing with the OP!

[b][quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1309409076' post='2260663']
Wow. I've heard a lot from you, but condemning us as iconoclasts is TOTALLY out of order. Did you even CONSIDER whether those of us who saw the new church as justified, and *gasp* beautiful, might have recognized the fact that the old church could have been "destroyed* by a natural disaster or fire? I am seriously sick of you hijacking threads with biting criticisms of those around you. Please consider whether you are making logical sense before you do so in the future, because this comment alone was definitely not logical, justified, or merited.
[/quote][/b]


[b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309409376' post='2260667']
I'm pretty sure I didn't call YOU an iconoclast, but rather those who destroyed that church. Regardless of the mode of renovation, it is a sad example of "Catholic" architecture...

I don't have to CONSIDER anything....I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm seriously sick of you judging the hell out of everything that I say. So, BACK OFF!!!

So, before you go admonishing me, you should probably look into the context in which I post.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. [url="http://www.stjoechurch.com/"]St. Joseph Proto-Cathedral[/url] was renovated in 1980. There was no fire or natural disaster, except for the architect.
[/quote][/b]

Now Totus is somewhat apologetic with

[quote]Brother, peace. You obviously have a lot of animosity towards the people around you. I apologize for setting you off, but I definitely feel justified in taking offense given precedent. I'm bowing out now, God bless. [/quote]

"Given the precedent".. That would be a key line. Because the Totus is referring to the camster of old who was bullying and vitriolic. HOWEVER, he has apologized multiple times and asked to be forgiven and move on.


[[b]quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309409444' post='2260668']
They did something similar to our Cathedral here in Dallas. So sad.



[/quote[/b]]
Then following the timeline, everyone has apologized and moved on until dUSt comes in quotes cam and states

[b][quote]CCC 1889: "Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse." [/b][b]This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." [/quote]
[/b]
There have been multiple posts. Cam is talking about vertical v horizontal worship in architecture. Totus Tuus has apologized and moved on. So why does dUSt bring it up?

[b][quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309451601' post='2260857']
You use your knowledge as defense for trolling and harsh criticism. You might be right, but you're not at all pastoral. Frankly, I understand completely why people don't listen to you, become defensive, or downright ignore you. I think part of the reason Pope John Paul II was so loved and had such a great impact on our world is because he LOVED the people he was serving enough to HUMBLE himself before them. He knew he spoke Truth, and he took care to do it with KINDNESS - EVEN WHEN it wasn't required of him.
[/quote][/b]

So Totus Tuus misunderstands what Cam is saying AND APOLOGIZED for the misunderstanding, yet it's still Cam's fault. Again Cam's ONLY fault in this thread is that he agreed with the OP. He showed his love for church architecture and was accused of bullying by franciscanheart.



[b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309455657' post='2260915']
How is it that I get slammed by Totus Tuus and all of a sudden this turns into a rant on how I'm not charitable? IDIGI...

This is my whole point....
[/quote][/b]


[b][quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309456423' post='2260925']
Maybe people think that if enough people tell you enough times, you may, at some point, realize it's true? Just a guess.
[/quote]
[/b]
Or maybe, Just maybe some people decided that they weren't going to accept Cam's apology. That's fine. It's perfectly human. It most certainly isn't Catholic. From a Catholic standpoint I think its deplorable. I know the rules about not criticizing a mod (which I'm sure dUSt is considered to be among) . But I am not criticizing what they have done from a Phorum standpoint. No one is above being called out for their lack of forgiveness.

[quote]If I have been not nice to anyone and it was construed as being uncharitable, I apologize. Per dUSt's request.[/quote] When someone asks for forgiveness, It's supposed to be given. Jesus never once answered a contrite sinner with "We'll see!"

Is this good enough for anyone? Apparently not. Cam has apologized several times and has, in my opinion, being trying earnestly to make amends. The lack of charity he's being accused of is more accurately a lack of forgiveness from members of this phorum and some (not all) of its staff.

and since dUSt is posting the catechism

[b][quote]2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."[/quote][/b]

As we forgive those who tresspass against us. So if we desire true forgiveness from Christ, WE ARE OBLIGATED to forgive those who are asking it of us. Some on this board did that with Cam. But certainly not those in this thread who admonished him for nothing.

Again, I'm not criticizing the public moves of dUSt and franciscanheart. The OP asked for someone to weep with her. Cam responded kindly and got railed I'm calling them out on their lack of forgiveness. I've known Cam personally for about 15 years. when he's been an arse, I've been the first to call him out. I've done it both publicly and privately. He's been an arse. But he's also apologized and was sincere. And out of the mouth of Christ, we are impelled to forgive.

Scholars gotta teach right? Thus endeth the lesson.

[Ice_nine]

I agree with jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff), even though I disagree with a lot of what Cam says and most of how he says it, I don't think he was out of line here.

But simply as an impartial observer this feud is getting a little tiring. Can you all please just kiss and make up?

Thx in advance

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309559761' post='2261762']
So let's sum up the thread derailment

[b] [/b]
Nobody is being called out. Cam is agreeing with OP. (Crazy I know!) The definition of Iconoclasm is is t[i][b]he deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives.[/b][/i] THAT WAS WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES! Again He's agreeing with the OP!

[b][/b]


[b][/b]

Now Totus is somewhat apologetic with



"Given the precedent".. That would be a key line. Because the Totus is referring to the camster of old who was bullying and vitriolic. HOWEVER, he has apologized multiple times and asked to be forgiven and move on.


[[b]quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309409444' post='2260668']
They did something similar to our Cathedral here in Dallas. So sad.



[/quote[/b]]
Then following the timeline, everyone has apologized and moved on until dUSt comes in quotes cam and states

[b]
[/b]
There have been multiple posts. Cam is talking about vertical v horizontal worship in architecture. Totus Tuus has apologized and moved on. So why does dUSt bring it up?

[b][/b]

So Totus Tuus misunderstands what Cam is saying AND APOLOGIZED for the misunderstanding, yet it's still Cam's fault. Again Cam's ONLY fault in this thread is that he agreed with the OP. He showed his love for church architecture and was accused of bullying by Hughey.



[b][/b]


[b]
[/b]
Or maybe, Just maybe some people decided that they weren't going to accept Cam's apology. That's fine. It's perfectly human. It most certainly isn't Catholic. From a Catholic standpoint I think its deplorable. I know the rules about not criticizing a mod (which I'm sure dUSt is considered to be among) . But I am not criticizing what they have done from a Phorum standpoint. No one is above being called out for their lack of forgiveness.

When someone asks for forgiveness, It's supposed to be given. Jesus never once answered a contrite sinner with "We'll see!"

Is this good enough for anyone? Apparently not. Cam has apologized several times and has, in my opinion, being trying earnestly to make amends. The lack of charity he's being accused of is more accurately a lack of forgiveness from members of this phorum and some (not all) of its staff.

and since dUSt is posting the catechism

[b][/b]

As we forgive those who tresspass against us. So if we desire true forgiveness from Christ, WE ARE OBLIGATED to forgive those who are asking it of us. Some on this board did that with Cam. But certainly not those in this thread who admonished him for nothing.

Again, I'm not criticizing the public moves of dUSt and Hughey. The OP asked for someone to weep with her. Cam responded kindly and got railed I'm calling them out on their lack of forgiveness. I've known Cam personally for about 15 years. when he's been an arse, I've been the first to call him out. I've done it both publicly and privately. He's been an arse. But he's also apologized and was sincere. And out of the mouth of Christ, we are impelled to forgive.

Scholars gotta teach right? Thus endeth the lesson.
[/quote]

Point well taken, jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff). I did misunderstand him in the first place. I'm rough around the edges, but even I find his posts biting most of the time. And my reference to precedent having been set is to posts since he apologized. I was on one of my PM hiatuses when he was apparently acting out and then apologized in the first place -- I missed ALL of it. My reference to precedent was just from the 2-3 weeks since I have been back. To be honest, I didn't even recognize his screen name when I came back a few weeks ago, so I don't think we ever interacted before I came back.

I'm sad the whole situation went down the way it did, but I personally felt a huge sigh of relief to know he was gone (Cam would have berated me for using the word "feel" for example) -- I feel like I can post things without having to look over my shoulder, and have a conversation without scrutiny. You paint a very nice picture of him, and I respect that he's your friend, but I didn't have as nice of an experience as you did. I feel that the forum will be a more peaceful place without the harshness he brought along with him, even when he was supposedly trying to be nice.

I apologize if this comes across as harsh. I am trying to express my take on the matter, as someone who didn't "know" him until just a few weeks ago. I fully agree with the calculations that dUSt and franciscanheart have made.

[Luigi]

I've stayed out of, or kept a very low profile in, [i]any[/i] thread that Cam involved himself since he came back. I've had him on Ignore for a couple of weeks, because I've never met anyone so close-minded and simultaneously so enamored of his own opinions in my entire put-together. But that's not what bothers me as much as...

His discourse style.
1. Blanket statements
2. Absolute statements (meaning over-the-top, way-too-strong, like... oh, I don't know, maybe "Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy" or whatever it was he named himself)
3. Vocabulary choices that make him sound like he's blowing his top - at the Phatmasser he's responding to - instead of making reasoned statements
4. A lack of qualifiers such as "usually, often, sometimes, many people"

These discourse tactics contribute to the readers' sense that Cam views himself as superior to his readers - perhaps smarter, but definitely more knowledgeable ('infinitely more knowledgeable' would fit his vocabulary choices I've seen), older (42!), better educated (I studied in Rome!), better travelled (I've been to four continents!), and certainly RIGHT, whereas those of us who disagree with him are perhaps less intelligent, but definitely less knowledgeable, younger, less educated, less travelled, and WRONG. His discourse style implies that he thinks his opinion is The Absolute and Everlasting Truth - really, I guess that's what we should expect from The Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy. And facts are facts, but opinions are just opinions. From Cam's style, he doesn't seem to know which is which - he treats all subjects along the spectrum as Absolute and Everlasting Truth. And I have never - not even once, in any thread, on any topic - read him admit that he was wrong. Everybody else has, some of us frequently, many of us quite quickly, but never Cam. And don't pull up his supposed apology -that was an offer to apologize, but it wasn't an apology. And [i]please [/i]don't let me even start on that week-or-two-long bitterly sarcastic campaign of his, "I love you, my brother in Christ" - for the love of all that holy!

So if Totus Tuus responded to Cam in a discourse style as strong as his own, it should be both allowed and perfectly understandable.

But Cam never could take what he dished out - and true communication, especially on a chat board like this, is a two-way street, not a top-down flow of correct information from the Lord & Master of All Orthodoxy to the poor, benighted, ignorant, & willful post-Vaticanites. If anyone talked to him like he talked to us, Cam was immediately and completely insulted. Then he'd pull another underhanded discourse tactic - usually, "You misunderstood what I said" (which again implies that he's smart and we're too stupid to understand written English), or "I wasn't talking about/addressing you personally" because he apparently doesn't understand persons. From what I've seen, the only thing he (thinks he) understands is Vatican documents - and the older, the better.

He said that the people who redesigned the pictured church were iconoclasts. You've graciously defined iconoclasts for us, but you neglected to include real examples. NOBODY broke into the pictured church with the intention of destroying icons, burning crosses, smashing stained glass windows, hammering statues to smithereens, or anything else - [i]that's[/i] what iconoclasts do, the kind of things Communists did to churches all over eastern Europe and Nazis did to synagogues wherever they went. The pastor, designers, and builders involved with the transformation of the pictured church simply updated the style of the church according to Vatican II norms - simple and noble. If Cam thinks it was a really, really bad idea, he could've said so without pulling "iconoclasts" out of his backside - other people did exactly that.

Totus' point was that, by labelling the transformation of the church as iconoclastic, Cam was also labelling as iconoclasts anyone who considered the transformation less than an abomination in the sight of the Lord, as Cam does. And Totus was right - Cam doesn't say "All of you who think this is acceptable are iconoclasts," but he makes a blanket statement, in terms too strong, using loaded terminology. And poor ol' Totus, being just a person, took it personally. Followed by Cam's standard, "Golly, I wasn't talking about YOU; you misunderstood me; I'll give you poor, benighted, less-educated, buggers a lesson in church-architecture-as-expression-of-theology because I know all about that, and then you'll see why I am correct and you are wrong" on this matter of [i]opinion[/i]. We already knew.

Someone had the complete temerity to challenge Cam's opinion, and he over-reacted with BACK OFF, SISTER! Somebody should said it to [i]him[/i] a long time ago.

There are plenty of people in this Phamily with whom I disagree, on plenty of topics. And yet we talk to each other civilly. We discuss our ideas, opinions, reasons, and approaches. We share each other's worries, challenges, successes, failures, fears, and joys. We supply each other with information if we have something to contribute. We get snarky sometimes, and maybe even cantankerous. But underneath it all and above it all, we consider ourselves brothers & sisters - in Christ, in faith, in the Catholic Church, in the Phatmass Phamily.

But Cam - he's in a class [i]almost[/i] by himself. Close-minded; rigidly opinionated; a desperate need to be respected and viewed as an authority figure; can't stay away from this board - he's got you pimping for him to get him back on Phatmass because he can't stand not being able to preach at us; never, ever, ever, wrong; accusatory; broad-brush, over-the-top writing style; blame-the-victim discourse moves; and absolutely humorless - I've never met anyone before who had absolutely no sense of humor. And at the age of 42, if he hasn't figured out how to have a civil, rational, reasonable discussion - or even argument - with other people... I doubt that he will ever figure it out.

It occurred to me the day after Cam was banned, that he is essentially a misanthrope. He just doesn't like people. He likes documents. He likes rules. I have no doubt whatsoever that he loves God. He just doesn't like God's people, unless they follow all the rules in the documents. And most of us will never be able to follow all the rules in all the documents all the time. Because we're people, not angels. But I'm thankful that God knows that already, even if Cam doesn't - God being omniscient and Cam being only intelligent, well-educated, and and well-read.

This is probably hard for you to read - you said you've been a friend of his for fifteen years - and I'm sorry if I've said some hard things about your friend. He probably has a lot of really wonderful traits - maybe he's just one big huggable puppy. But I know him only from Phatmass and what he's written here. I've stayed out of his way because, originally, I was afraid of him. Now I think he wouldn't listen to anything I say, and I don't believe anything he says, so it would just be a waste of time.

But I [b][i]pray[/i][/b] - and I ask all the saints and angels in heaven to pray with me - that dUSt makes Cam's Phatmass ban permanent.

[dominicansoul]

Luigi's post needs to be pinned ...

[vee]

This is a post in honor of Luigi's post.
AMEN

[Jaime]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309587049' post='2262014']
I've stayed out of, or kept a very low profile in, [i]any[/i] thread that Cam involved himself since he came back. I've had him on Ignore for a couple of weeks, because I've never met anyone so close-minded and simultaneously so enamored of his own opinions in my entire put-together. But that's not what bothers me as much as...

His discourse style.
1. Blanket statements
2. Absolute statements (meaning over-the-top, way-too-strong, like... oh, I don't know, maybe "Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy" or whatever it was he named himself)
3. Vocabulary choices that make him sound like he's blowing his top - at the Phatmasser he's responding to - instead of making reasoned statements
4. A lack of qualifiers such as "usually, often, sometimes, many people"

These discourse tactics contribute to the readers' sense that Cam views himself as superior to his readers - perhaps smarter, but definitely more knowledgeable ('infinitely more knowledgeable' would fit his vocabulary choices I've seen), older (42!), better educated (I studied in Rome!), better travelled (I've been to four continents!), and certainly RIGHT, whereas those of us who disagree with him are perhaps less intelligent, but definitely less knowledgeable, younger, less educated, less travelled, and WRONG. His discourse style implies that he thinks his opinion is The Absolute and Everlasting Truth - really, I guess that's what we should expect from The Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy. And facts are facts, but opinions are just opinions. From Cam's style, he doesn't seem to know which is which - he treats all subjects along the spectrum as Absolute and Everlasting Truth. And I have never - not even once, in any thread, on any topic - read him admit that he was wrong. Everybody else has, some of us frequently, many of us quite quickly, but never Cam. And don't pull up his supposed apology -that was an offer to apologize, but it wasn't an apology. And [i]please [/i]don't let me even start on that week-or-two-long bitterly sarcastic campaign of his, "I love you, my brother in Christ" - for the love of all that holy!

So if Totus Tuus responded to Cam in a discourse style as strong as his own, it should be both allowed and perfectly understandable.

But Cam never could take what he dished out - and true communication, especially on a chat board like this, is a two-way street, not a top-down flow of correct information from the Lord & Master of All Orthodoxy to the poor, benighted, ignorant, & willful post-Vaticanites. If anyone talked to him like he talked to us, Cam was immediately and completely insulted. Then he'd pull another underhanded discourse tactic - usually, "You misunderstood what I said" (which again implies that he's smart and we're too stupid to understand written English), or "I wasn't talking about/addressing you personally" because he apparently doesn't understand persons. From what I've seen, the only thing he (thinks he) understands is Vatican documents - and the older, the better.

He said that the people who redesigned the pictured church were iconoclasts. You've graciously defined iconoclasts for us, but you neglected to include real examples. NOBODY broke into the pictured church with the intention of destroying icons, burning crosses, smashing stained glass windows, hammering statues to smithereens, or anything else - [i]that's[/i] what iconoclasts do, the kind of things Communists did to churches all over eastern Europe and Nazis did to synagogues wherever they went. The pastor, designers, and builders involved with the transformation of the pictured church simply updated the style of the church according to Vatican II norms - simple and noble. If Cam thinks it was a really, really bad idea, he could've said so without pulling "iconoclasts" out of his backside - other people did exactly that.

Totus' point was that, by labelling the transformation of the church as iconoclastic, Cam was also labelling as iconoclasts anyone who considered the transformation less than an abomination in the sight of the Lord, as Cam does. And Totus was right - Cam doesn't say "All of you who think this is acceptable are iconoclasts," but he makes a blanket statement, in terms too strong, using loaded terminology. And poor ol' Totus, being just a person, took it personally. Followed by Cam's standard, "Golly, I wasn't talking about YOU; you misunderstood me; I'll give you poor, benighted, less-educated, buggers a lesson in church-architecture-as-expression-of-theology because I know all about that, and then you'll see why I am correct and you are wrong" on this matter of [i]opinion[/i]. We already knew.

Someone had the complete temerity to challenge Cam's opinion, and he over-reacted with BACK OFF, SISTER! Somebody should said it to [i]him[/i] a long time ago.

There are plenty of people in this Phamily with whom I disagree, on plenty of topics. And yet we talk to each other civilly. We discuss our ideas, opinions, reasons, and approaches. We share each other's worries, challenges, successes, failures, fears, and joys. We supply each other with information if we have something to contribute. We get snarky sometimes, and maybe even cantankerous. But underneath it all and above it all, we consider ourselves brothers & sisters - in Christ, in faith, in the Catholic Church, in the Phatmass Phamily.

But Cam - he's in a class [i]almost[/i] by himself. Close-minded; rigidly opinionated; a desperate need to be respected and viewed as an authority figure; can't stay away from this board - he's got you pimping for him to get him back on Phatmass because he can't stand not being able to preach at us; never, ever, ever, wrong; accusatory; broad-brush, over-the-top writing style; blame-the-victim discourse moves; and absolutely humorless - I've never met anyone before who had absolutely no sense of humor. And at the age of 42, if he hasn't figured out how to have a civil, rational, reasonable discussion - or even argument - with other people... I doubt that he will ever figure it out.

It occurred to me the day after Cam was banned, that he is essentially a misanthrope. He just doesn't like people. He likes documents. He likes rules. I have no doubt whatsoever that he loves God. He just doesn't like God's people, unless they follow all the rules in the documents. And most of us will never be able to follow all the rules in all the documents all the time. Because we're people, not angels. But I'm thankful that God knows that already, even if Cam doesn't - God being omniscient and Cam being only intelligent, well-educated, and and well-read.

This is probably hard for you to read - you said you've been a friend of his for fifteen years - and I'm sorry if I've said some hard things about your friend. He probably has a lot of really wonderful traits - maybe he's just one big huggable puppy. But I know him only from Phatmass and what he's written here. I've stayed out of his way because, originally, I was afraid of him. Now I think he wouldn't listen to anything I say, and I don't believe anything he says, so it would just be a waste of time.

But I [b][i]pray[/i][/b] - and I ask all the saints and angels in heaven to pray with me - that dUSt makes Cam's Phatmass ban permanent.
[/quote]

Well first of all good for you for putting him on ignore. He can be scary and that's what the ignore feature is for. But let's get a couple of things straight Luigi. I don't "pimp" for anyone. I'm not trying to get Cam reinstated. I'm trying to show people like you, dUSt and franciscanheart that forgiveness can be a good thing. Especially if its asked for. Pardon me for offering unsolicited advice but I would suggest that you quit praying for Camster's permanent ban and perhaps ask the saints to help you to learn how to forgive.

[Luigi]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309590706' post='2262023']
Well first of all good for you for putting him on ignore. He can be scary and that's what the ignore feature is for. But let's get a couple of things straight Luigi. I don't "pimp" for anyone. I'm not trying to get Cam reinstated. I'm trying to show people like you, dUSt and Hughey that forgiveness can be a good thing. Especially if its asked for. Pardon me for offering unsolicited advice but I would suggest that you quit praying for Camster's permanent ban and perhaps ask the saints to help you to learn how to forgive.
[/quote]

I probably shouldn't have used "pimping" - "defending," or "going to bat for," or other choices would have done just as well. It was late, and I was tired & somewhat upset.

I do pray for Cam every day - by name - when I pray for the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, theologians, philosophers, preachers, catechists, and teachers, and for vocations. I include all the Phatmassers in that prayer, too.

I believe in forgiveness, too - been Catholic all my life. The problem for me is how to balance forgiveness with the old adage that tigers don't change their stripes. My folks worked & worked & worked with - and forgave & forgave & forgave - my brother that wound up dying in the car accident because he was high - they never gave up on him until he died. Maybe that should be my approach here, but it's not - Cam's not my son, I feel connected to him by faith & charity & all that, but I've got my limits, too.