AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1309413122' post='2260691'] Contrary to the beliefs on many worlds, the Doctor is not and has never been God. [/quote] shhh Please don't tell my sister-in-law this - she thinks he is! I stopped watching the show after Tom Baker left even though I am a distant relative (way back through the Scottish side of the family) of David Tennant! [quote] But I agree, it's hard to tell from the pics what happened to those smaller side shrines. It looks as if the alcoves are still there from the tiny bit we can see at the edges, but given the extent of the renovations I'm not sure if the contents would be the same. [/quote] At our Latin Mass church, the side chapels were for Mary and Joseph, but nowadays there don't seem to be many of these left. I loved them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309413381' post='2260696'] Really? Really?!?!?! Really. [/quote] Well done Cam - I saw your original post via email - you deserve praise for editing it. I was just about to respond to it when I saw this one... good catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309413540' post='2260697'] shhh Please don't tell my sister-in-law this - she thinks he is! I stopped watching the show after Tom Baker left even though I am a distant relative (way back through the Scottish side of the family) of David Tennant! At our Latin Mass church, the side chapels were for Mary and Joseph, but nowadays there don't seem to be many of these left. I loved them. [/quote] At home we have a side chapel for Mary and Joseph, not up here though. Really gorgeous, actual stonework lit only by candles. And you speak against Tennant despite sharing some blood with him?! I shall not allow my roommate to see this thread, for he would weep over that and not the original post. I've only seen Tennant and the new guy whose name I've not yet been able to remember for longer than an hour (though that could be the Doctor's doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 honestly, i think they both look beautiful - the new version could be worse. i wouldn't mind it if our parish looked that nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1309414081' post='2260703'] At home we have a side chapel for Mary and Joseph, not up here though. Really gorgeous, actual stonework lit only by candles. And you speak against Tennant despite sharing some blood with him?! I shall not allow my roommate to see this thread, for he would weep over that and not the original post. I've only seen Tennant and the new guy whose name I've not yet been able to remember for longer than an hour (though that could be the Doctor's doing). [/quote] We have a large statue of the BVM in my current country church - it istoo simple for a side chapel of any kind, but the opposite side has a whiteboard for the hymn numbers... poor St J got left out! And I think Tennant is really cute (I didn't inherit those genes) and only found out about our relationship(!) by watching a TV program about him searching out his ancestors... and was surprised when they showed a birth certificate with some of the same rellies that I have! I just stopped watching the show when I left England where I was living at the time - even met Tom Baker in person then! Now I watch it if I catch it- otherwise not..... your roomate sounds like my sis-in-law! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1309414196' post='2260705'] honestly, i think they both look beautiful - the new version could be worse. i wouldn't mind it if our parish looked that nice. [/quote] My point exactly! i wish I could go to such a nice church, even though it is renovated. Our small country church is weatherboard and probably quite old, but nothing at all attractive really. It's so plain it looks more like a Protestant church and I actually prefer the look of our local Anglican church, which is stone and really nice looking. So, if one has to have a renovation then it could have been a lot worse, considering some of the montrosities I have seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1309403523' post='2260619'] I seriously need to get this off my chest. It really breaks my heart. So here's what my parish church looked like in 1934: Beautiful, right? 2011: [/quote] I came across old pictures of my home town's cathedral and was shocked at the difference. It suffered damages from fires and earthquakes so renovations and repairs were necessary but a lot of elements were removed and changed over the years. It still a beautiful church, but not as majestic as it used to be. Edited June 30, 2011 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I must confess I prefer the current photo. Don't get me wrong, the earlier one is lovely, but I persoanlly prefer more simple churches. My current parish has an extremely ornate church, with an awful lot of decoration, statues, etc. One day when there was Adoration there were so many candles and so much silverwork about that you needed a magnifying glass to see Christ. But then I'm a Carmelite so like simplicity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1309429836' post='2260727'] I must confess I prefer the current photo. Don't get me wrong, the earlier one is lovely, but I persoanlly prefer more simple churches. My current parish has an extremely ornate church, with an awful lot of decoration, statues, etc. One day when there was Adoration there were so many candles and so much silverwork about that you needed a magnifying glass to see Christ. But then I'm a Carmelite so like simplicity [/quote] How's this for simplicity? [url="http://media.dwell.com/images/643*473/pawson-plain-space-Novy-Dvur-interior.jpg"]Cistercian Monastery of Our Lady of Nový Dvůr[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 necessary renovation or not, there is no reason to remove all that beauty you see present in the 1934 picture. There has been a deliberate movement from moderrnists within the Church to destroy the beauty, to destroy the splendor, to not give God the most we puny little humans can give. Look back to the cathedrals of the past. The Catholics back in those days spared no expense. Church buildings are supposed to reflect the glory of God. Look at the church Mother Angelica built. Look at the church the DSMME built. Look at what the Nashville Doms built. They give a lesson to all of us on what a church should look like. Its not just a building. There is nothing more uglier than modernist church architecture. And sometimes, modernizing a church takes millions. Why not spend that amount on making it more grand, rather than producing a sterile, decoration-free, image-free, bland environment? Yes, in the above photo, the modern version of that Church looks "okay" enuff. But I see no reason at all why they couldn't have left it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309411020' post='2260681'] I hope not either. I know of one parish in Minnesota where the mensa from the old high altar went into making the curbstops for the handicap stalls for cars. No lie, I've seen it with my own eyes...if I can find a picture I will. [/quote] I'm now stuck somewhere between a facepalm and this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I do admit, I think the second picture does look like a lovely church. Although the first one might be "prettier," and more grand than the second, I have certainly seen far, far worse. I do understand that you're upset - if doing a renovation, why couldn't they have kept it the same, you know? But it's my opinion that, at least according to the picture, while it is much simpler than it used to be, it seems it has kept the general "integrity" of the church. Like I said, I have seen [i]far, far[/i] worse renovations. Instead of being upset, please try to count your blessings. There are very few churches anymore that look as lovely as your renovated church; I would give anything to be able to regularly attend a church that looked like that. I think it's a travesty (to say the least) what they often do when "renovating" Catholic churches, but it seems at least for your church, that sadness might be better spent weeping over the vast majority of Catholic couples who contracept, or those Catholics who don't attend Mass every Sunday or receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation regularly, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1309438252' post='2260747'] I do admit, I think the second picture does look like a lovely church. Although the first one might be "prettier," and more grand than the second, I have certainly seen far, far worse. I do understand that you're upset - if doing a renovation, why couldn't they have kept it the same, you know? But it's my opinion that, at least according to the picture, while it is much simpler than it used to be, it seems it has kept the general "integrity" of the church. Like I said, I have seen [i]far, far[/i] worse renovations. Instead of being upset, please try to count your blessings. There are very few churches anymore that look as lovely as your renovated church; I would give anything to be able to regularly attend a church that looked like that. I think it's a travesty (to say the least) what they often do when "renovating" Catholic churches, but it seems at least for your church, that sadness might be better spent weeping over the vast majority of Catholic couples who contracept, or those Catholics who don't attend Mass every Sunday or receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation regularly, for instance. [/quote] Good point there and it made me rethink my own posts. although I too would love a beautiful church, I'm just grateful that we have one to go to, simple as it is, and that we have a priest, albeit part-time. I read a story about a girl in China during a time of oppression (even more than now) and they had to have Communion sneaked to them by a priest who was in hiding. It would be great if all churches matched our own sense of beauty and it is a shame when they take away a glorious church to make a hideous one, but just having a church to go to is a great blessing, and this one is one of the nicer looking ones, even after the renovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1309403523' post='2260619'] I seriously need to get this off my chest. It really breaks my heart. So here's what my parish church looked like in 1934: [img]http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z423/gabbymmm/St-Joseph-Proto-Cathedral-2.jpg[/img] Beautiful, right? 2011: [img]http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z423/gabbymmm/st-joe-38mm-1.jpg[/img] [/quote] Here's the issue at hand...and it is glaringly obvious. There is a change in theology with regard to architecture and it serves man and not God. It is the theology the move toward horizontal theology as being primary (as promoted in the second photo) and vertical theology as being secondary (as promoted in the first). Vertical theology = God as focus Horizontal theology = Man as focus The inherent issue is that in theology man is never the end, but rather God is. This is one of the hallmark errors of Protestantism. It is a sort of positivism which invaded Catholic thought after Vatican Council II wherein the communal aspect of worship became the central focus whereas the God-centered became a relegation of the past and "old thinking." When we see our minds and hearts not drawn upward to God, who is the main recipient of the Mass, but rather to the congregation around us, we find there are theological problems which arise. Who is the focus? What is the aim? Are we serving God with this attitude or are we serving ourselves? These questions are bigger than the architecture, but it is through the architecture that these questions become manifest. This is yet another example of poor catehesis of the faithful. This shows a breakdown in very elementary Systematic Theology which everyone can grasp. When we look at the two pictures, we see can see the obvious divergence of theological thought. In the first, we see our eyes drawn upward in everything that has to do with the sanctuary... 1. The step up into the sanctuary, through the altar rail, which signifies a separation of the world from the otherworldly 2. The canopies over the pulpit and the cathedra immediately draw our eyes upward 3. The three steps which lead up to the altar itself. 4. The vertical nature of the raredos draws our eyes from the mensa and gradine toward the heavens 5. The painting of the sanctuary draws the eyes upward to look at the ceiling which shows a triangle to represent the Trinity. Whereas when we look at the second we see: 1. A lack of altar rail which immediately opens the space to the congregation, making the steps up an after thought. 2. The white wash of paint brings the sanctuary down and focuses the eyes on the contrasting furniture (music stand, candlesticks on the floor, celebrant's (sic. presider's) chair. This is a style employed by photographers when they want the subject to be the focus and not the surroundings, they will have a white backdrop with a white floor.....thereby causing focus to be leveled on the subject at hand. 3. The altar is white, which washes out the mensa and creates a focus not looking upward, but rather focusing down on mosaics under the mensa. 4. The tabernacle is lost in a sea of white and removes focus even though it is a gilded brass. 5. The movement of the altar rail behind the altar is an afterthought in looking at the photo and completely lost. 6. The contrasting "banners" or "tippets" point downward further focusing the eyes downward. If the Mass is first a way to worship God, why was the focus moved from looking upward to looking down at man? It is a shift in theology. It is a shift in view of how we are to take the liturgy of the Church. It is part of the hermeneutic of rupture and inconsistent with Catholic thought. Horizontal theology is man focused. Vertical theology is God focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309439063' post='2260752'] Here's the issue at hand...and it is glaringly obvious. There is a change in theology with regard to architecture and it serves man and not God. It is the theology the move toward horizontal theology as being primary (as promoted in the second photo) and vertical theology as being secondary (as promoted in the first). Vertical theology = God as focus Horizontal theology = Man as focus The inherent issue is that in theology man is never the end, but rather God is. This is one of the hallmark errors of Protestantism. It is a sort of positivism which invaded Catholic thought after Vatican Council II wherein the communal aspect of worship became the central focus whereas the God-centered became a relegation of the past and "old thinking." When we see our minds and hearts not drawn upward to God, who is the main recipient of the Mass, but rather to the congregation around us, we find there are theological problems which arise. Who is the focus? What is the aim? Are we serving God with this attitude or are we serving ourselves? These questions are bigger than the architecture, but it is through the architecture that these questions become manifest. This is yet another example of poor catehesis of the faithful. This shows a breakdown in very elementary Systematic Theology which everyone can grasp. When we look at the two pictures, we see can see the obvious divergence of theological thought. In the first, we see our eyes drawn upward in everything that has to do with the sanctuary... 1. The step up into the sanctuary, through the altar rail, which signifies a separation of the world from the otherworldly 2. The canopies over the pulpit and the cathedra immediately draw our eyes upward 3. The three steps which lead up to the altar itself. 4. The vertical nature of the raredos draws our eyes from the mensa and gradine toward the heavens 5. The painting of the sanctuary draws the eyes upward to look at the ceiling which shows a triangle to represent the Trinity. Whereas when we look at the second we see: 1. A lack of altar rail which immediately opens the space to the congregation, making the steps up an after thought. 2. The white wash of paint brings the sanctuary down and focuses the eyes on the contrasting furniture (music stand, candlesticks on the floor, celebrant's (sic. presider's) chair. This is a style employed by photographers when they want the subject to be the focus and not the surroundings, they will have a white backdrop with a white floor.....thereby causing focus to be leveled on the subject at hand. 3. The altar is white, which washes out the mensa and creates a focus not looking upward, but rather focusing down on mosaics under the mensa. 4. The tabernacle is lost in a sea of white and removes focus even though it is a gilded brass. 5. The movement of the altar rail behind the altar is an afterthought in looking at the photo and completely lost. 6. The contrasting "banners" or "tippets" point downward further focusing the eyes downward. If the Mass is first a way to worship God, why was the focus moved from looking upward to looking down at man? It is a shift in theology. It is a shift in view of how we are to take the liturgy of the Church. It is part of the hermeneutic of rupture and inconsistent with Catholic thought. Horizontal theology is man focused. Vertical theology is God focused. [/quote] And that all being said, I am still grateful just to have a church, any church to worship in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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