cmotherofpirl Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309459406' post='2260977'] Would Jesus shun the man? Or his family? I don't think so. That's what the Church should stand for. Less public relations or more relations with the public. [/quote] If the man was publicly living in sin with another man then he doesn't- shouldn't- can't have a public catholic funeral. If he was living with a woman in sin he wouldn't get one that way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1309460029' post='2260989'] How can the Church go on preaching against abortion, homosexuality, promiscuity etc... [/quote] I believe that there is a gigantic moral and ethical difference between abortion and homosexuality. I don't equate the two, nor do I gauge my response to one on the basis of the other [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309460267' post='2260998'] Do you know exactly what's going on there? Does this personally affect you in a way that gives you more information than what can be read in the news? If it does, please share more so that we can understand where you're coming from and why you seem to be attacking the Church (I say seem because things aren't always what they seem). Also, WWJD is a terrible response to this. 1 - I've never heard any instance of that argument in which the person using it would actually know what Jesus would do. 2 - Remember that Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple (this is a different situation, but I'm illustrating that Jesus' actions proved there is such a thing as charitable negative consequences for immoral behavior, and to point out that He had mercy on those who repented, NOT those still engaging in the immoral behavior). 3 - Jesus is God. We are people. Therefore there may exist certain situations in which our actions might be wrong while His are right, just based on the nature of our levels of existence (like how it's a grave, grave, mortal sin if I go and try to celebrate the Eucharist, because I'm not a priest, but it's perfectly natural and extremely good for a priest to do so). This isn't about public relations - it's about maintaining Truth so that the Church can still shine as a beacon of light for all souls living. True Faith takes a leap, to let go of your own opinions and realize that the Church might actually be right about certain things that you think are wrong. [/quote] 1) It does personally affect me because I have a family member, a best friends and a bunch of close friends who are homosexual. All have been brought up Catholic, all have been shunned and made to feel excluded because they are gay. They've equated this disrespect they've received by Catholics and the Church with the entirety of God and Christ. Logical fallacy? Sure. Can you blame them? I sure can't... 2) Jesus also turned back those who, with knowledge of the letter of the law in their heads, sought to stone and kill Mary Magdelene. He knew she had transgressed, and yet he refused to admonish or "punish" her. He just extended His hand, in love and charity. 3) I think it's really great that you've conceded that people of honest hearts and loving intentions could be wrong because they are NOT God and can only do what they believe is in line with God's love. (see you're 3rd point about WWJD) That's been my message since I've returned to Phatmass, yet it's earned me a "I don't rep the Church" label. [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309462324' post='2261039'] If he was living with a woman in sin he wouldn't get one that way either. [/quote] Sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309390820' post='2260519'] Captain Kirk said it best in "A Taste of Armageddon": "All right. It's instinctive. The instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we won't kill today. That's all it takes--knowing that we won't kill.... today." [/quote] We don't have to stop being ourselves. We all have the right to be who we are. Yes I'm a lesbian. I'm not in a relationship because I choose not to be. But that doesn't make me inherently evil. So bash me all you want. I will fight back. In a nice way of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309288213' post='2259809'] How many homosexuals do you know who are linked to a "partner" live a celibate lifestyle? I know hundreds (yes, literally) who do not. The connotation assumes a sexual relationship. That is one of the definers of an active gay lifestyle.... We can argue all we want about the semantics of this....the reality is that he and his "partner" lived together and the GLBT community is bemoaning and supporting him...I don't know of any GLBT group anywhere which advocates celibacy for "partnerships." So, it is safe to assume that he was not celibate. On another note, it is absolutely irrelevant that he left money to this parish. I am grateful that he did, but that has no bearing on the state of his soul at the time of death. It would also make sense that if he had repented and made proper amends before his death, then he would have been afforded a Catholic funeral. So, I think that this is yet another example of the MSM misinterpreting the truth of the Church. I will pray for his living family members who apostatized and fled to the Anglican Church. They need our prayers too. [/quote] I really do wish people would get off this croutons of the "active gay lifestyle." There's no such thing. Stop putting people down for being who they are. There are many Christian gays who are in a committed relationship and deeply love the Lord and serve Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309463352' post='2261060'] I really do wish people would get off this croutons of the "active gay lifestyle." There's no such thing. Stop putting people down for being who they are. There are many Christian gays who are in a committed relationship and deeply love the Lord and serve Him. [/quote] +100 But be careful. You're likely to get a new label for this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463458' post='2261063'] +100 But be careful. You're likely to get a new label for this... [/quote] Do you really think I care? I'm tired of hiding who I am and would much rather be open and out and happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Except the Church cannot condone any relationship outside of marriage of anyone unless it is a chaste friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309463181' post='2261055'] We don't have to stop being ourselves. We all have the right to be who we are. Yes I'm a lesbian. I'm not in a relationship because I choose not to be. But that doesn't make me inherently evil. So bash me all you want. I will fight back. In a nice way of course. [/quote] Why would anyone bash you? That is not christian. On the other hand we assume that by designating yourself as catholic you accept the teaching of the Church in all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309463603' post='2261065'] Do you really think I care? I'm tired of hiding who I am and would much rather be open and out and happy. [/quote] Good for you [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309463625' post='2261066'] Except the Church cannot condone any relationship outside of marriage of anyone unless it is a chaste friendship. [/quote] I guess I don't see the funeral as an appropriate time to make a statement such as this. As a point of reference, are priests supposed to deny gay men the Last Rites on their death beds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309311415' post='2260021'] I'm not so sure it's genetics...there's a pretty strong argument that can be made that it is a choice. But I'm not going to argue that...that isn't the point of this thread... [/quote] It is not a choice. We don't choose to be gay just like others don't choose to be straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463841' post='2261071'] Good for you I guess I don't see the funeral as an appropriate time to make a statement such as this. As a point of reference, are priests supposed to deny gay men the Last Rites on their death beds? [/quote] No, because that includes confession, and if you deny confession, well, then he can't have any sacraments. However, that isn't an equal comparison, regardless, because a funeral is not a sacrament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463841' post='2261071'] Good for you I guess I don't see the funeral as an appropriate time to make a statement such as this. As a point of reference, are priests supposed to deny gay men the Last Rites on their death beds? [/quote] Funeral or not, I am not going to be silent when people are gay bashing and judging. I will stand up for myself and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463841' post='2261071'] Good for you I guess I don't see the funeral as an appropriate time to make a statement such as this. As a point of reference, are priests supposed to deny gay men the Last Rites on their death beds? [/quote] Why would the church refuse last rites to anyone, it could be their last chance to confess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309463044' post='2261053'] 1) It does personally affect me because I have a family member, a best friends and a bunch of close friends who are homosexual. All have been brought up Catholic, all have been shunned and made to feel excluded because they are gay. They've equated this disrespect they've received by Catholics and the Church with the entirety of God and Christ. Logical fallacy? Sure. Can you blame them? I sure can't... 2) Jesus also turned back those who, with knowledge of the letter of the law in their heads, sought to stone and kill Mary Magdelene. He knew she had transgressed, and yet he refused to admonish or "punish" her. He just extended His hand, in love and charity. 3) I think it's really great that you've conceded that people of honest hearts and loving intentions could be wrong because they are NOT God and can only do what they believe is in line with God's love. (see you're 3rd point about WWJD) That's been my message since I've returned to Phatmass, yet it's earned me a "I don't rep the Church" label. [/quote] 1) I'm sorry - the issue of homosexuality does bring many to unjustly treat those struggling with said problems. I'm sorry that you've seen friends and family thusly treated. But that's not the Church, that's members of the Church, who are fallible. I meant, do you know more about this specific story than what we've read in the news? Because all we've heard so far are just biased sides of the story. I'm sure we'll never hear the true facts, and so we'll never know who's distorting the story. Maybe the deceased is also a publicly known child-molester or murderer who died swearing that he would do it again. Or maybe he publicly recanted of his public immorality. The point is that we just don't know enough to say absolutely who is right and who is wrong. But regardless, the Catholic Church is right. The priest representing her could be wrong, but not the Church's moral teaching. 2) That's exactly my point - He refused to admonish or punish her, because He knew she had changed. If they were getting ready to stone her, and she was acting like a prostitute, Christ would not have saved her. He saved her because she repented. 3) If you honestly believe you are right, then rejoice in your suffering for having done what you thought was right. I don't remember where It says, "Be either hot or cold. Do not be lukewarm...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309463954' post='2261076'] Why would the church refuse last rites to anyone, it could be their last chance to confess. [/quote] Uh huh. Then why would the Church deny the bereaved family a Catholic mass to honor their loved one? Because, let's be honest--once we're dead, you're gone and it doesn't matter the manner in which you are memorialized. Funerals and such are for the family and friends of the deceased. And denying them the opportunity to put their loved ones to rest in a Catholic manner punishes THEM for something they have nothing to do with (i.e.- the sexuality of their loved one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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