katholikkid Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 The point is scandal is relative. Where I'm from murder or prostitution is much less common then gay couples. So should a murderer or prostitute be given a funeral? In my diocese that might cause scandal. Homosexuality not so much since there is familiarity with people not just some vague ideas about a lifestyle that often is stereotyped and the Church has a great outreach for people who want to be faithful Catholics while being able to be honest and up front with their struggles. And I can tell you from what I've seen it takes great courage to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I agree that it seems like a set up if the man wasn't trying to be a practicing Catholic. Churches get called everyday about doing weddings or funerals. I think it is to these priest's credit that they didn't know who this man was until his partner called. It could be his family are practicing Catholics, and therefore believe they deserve the service of the church on demand. The same thing happens when grandmother wants a baby baptized and the parents aren't practicing. It always causes grief for the pastoral staff. This one was just more public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309362083' post='2260263'] They are still human beings. And people cannot help how they born. [/quote] Captain Kirk said it best in "A Taste of Armageddon": "All right. It's instinctive. The instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we won't kill today. That's all it takes--knowing that we won't kill.... today." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 [quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1309372865' post='2260347'] The point is scandal is relative. Where I'm from murder or prostitution is much less common then gay couples. So should a murderer or prostitute be given a funeral? [/quote] From what I've heard, gangsters are often denied church funerals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309369046' post='2260301'] So what about people who use birth control? Don't tell me all these one and two child families happen by chance. These people are going against the Church's teaching. Then we have divorced people, heterosexual people who live together without being married, etc. etc. All these people should be denied burial? According to this: "3° other manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful." Almost anybody could be excluded if enough people were scandalized. At one point women working outside the home were scandalous. At one point women who wore pantaloons were scandalous. At one point a Roman Catholic who married a protestant was scandalous. At someone who had left a religious congregation was scandalous. [/quote] Having a small family in itself is not a sin. People can speculate, but it's none of their business. Nor is it a sin to work outside the home. Nor is wearing p[b][/b]ants. They are not sins. If people are scandalized by those things, that is their problem. Someone who flaunts sin is the subject here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309369936' post='2260316'] It should be considered that denying this funeral is a very damaging thing to the reputation of the church, causing a scandal unto itself. I would not be surprised if every close family member and friend to the man in question stopped going to the catholic church after hearing this, and it cant be doing any good to the other people who hear about it over the internet, news etc. [/quote] Well, I guess you can look at it from both sides; on one hand you think it's damaging to the reputation of the Church for what seems to be an injustice (which isn't the Church's fault). On the other hand, you could say that it would be damaging to the Church's reputation to allow for the funeral service, for the reasons I've already stated. The answer lies in the simple truth - that what was reported on the matter by the media really is an attack on the Church. It sounds like an injustice because that's the way the media made it sound. If the sin is public, then the Church must respond to it publicly. It's as simple as that. The goal (or one of the goals) of the Church is the sanctification of all souls. That means, more than anything, that the Church must present truth in all cases and in all circumstances. If a person publicly repents, that person is shown mercy - per charity. If not, then the Church must be the example of truth, before all else, when dealing with the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1309391443' post='2260524'] Someone who flaunts sin is the subject here. [/quote] Very well said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309369936' post='2260316'] It should be considered that denying this funeral is a very damaging thing to the reputation of the church, causing a scandal unto itself. I would not be surprised if every close family member and friend to the man in question stopped going to the catholic church after hearing this, and it cant be doing any good to the other people who hear about it over the internet, news etc. [/quote] "Scandal" as the Church uses the word means specifically leading others into sin. Giving the impression that the Church is okay with a sinful lifestyle would be an example of scandal. Teaching or doing things that are unpopular and might turn people away (or "scandalize" them) is not scandal in that sense of the word. Many left Jesus Christ because they could not handle his "hard sayings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309456492' post='2260926'] "Scandal" as the Church uses the word means specifically leading others into sin. Giving the impression that the Church is okay with a sinful lifestyle would be an example of scandal. [/quote] Would that extend to a really Catholic grocer who knows for sure that some of his customers are active homosexuals? Does allowing them to shop at his store "give the impression" that he is okay with their lifestyle? How about a group of black guys? Or an interracial couple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309457025' post='2260937'] Would that extend to a really Catholic grocer who knows for sure that some of his customers are active homosexuals? Does allowing them to shop at his store "give the impression" that he is okay with their lifestyle? How about a group of black guys? Or an interracial couple? [/quote] That's good... compare racism with having a moral standard... excellent and i don't think that would extend... everyone has the right to buy food... not everyone has the right to a Catholic funeral... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1309457919' post='2260954'] That's good... compare racism with having a moral standard... excellent and i don't think that would extend... everyone has the right to buy food... not everyone has the right to a Catholic funeral... [/quote] No, you misunderstand my point, which is that the notion that the family of a relative who has died has to hear that a Catholic funeral would be a "scandal" is absurd. Someone said a few pages back that what is "scandalous" in one area isn't so in others. In certain areas of this country, there are people who think that it's okay to persecute interracial couples because they have a "moral standard." For those people, serving them would be tacit endorsement of that lifestyle, one that would be "scandalous" in their community. Similarly, the churches who are doing this seem to be the ones [i]creating[/i] the scandals, with their punitive and hateful exclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309457025' post='2260937'] Would that extend to a really Catholic grocer who knows for sure that some of his customers are active homosexuals? Does allowing them to shop at his store "give the impression" that he is okay with their lifestyle? How about a group of black guys? Or an interracial couple? [/quote] The grocer is not the Church. This applies to the Catholic Church, because the Church must be seen as the source of Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309459361' post='2260976'] The grocer is not the Church. This applies to the Catholic Church, because the Church must be seen as the source of Truth. [/quote] Would Jesus shun the man? Or his family? I don't think so. That's what the Church should stand for. Less public relations or more relations with the public. Edited June 30, 2011 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309458250' post='2260960'] No, you misunderstand my point, which is that the notion that the family of a relative who has died has to hear that a Catholic funeral would be a "scandal" is absurd. Someone said a few pages back that what is "scandalous" in one area isn't so in others. In certain areas of this country, there are people who think that it's okay to persecute interracial couples because they have a "moral standard." For those people, serving them would be tacit endorsement of that lifestyle, one that would be "scandalous" in their community. Similarly, the churches who are doing this seem to be the ones [i]creating[/i] the scandals, with their punitive and hateful exclusions. [/quote] The Church has a responsibility to the world to stand for Truth. How can the Church go on preaching against abortion, homosexuality, promiscuity etc. if She turns a blind eye when the rubber hits the road? We can't say, on the one hand, "acting in this way causes you to break fellowship with us. We cannot stand for this behavior," and "Well, I guess we can bury him anyway and deny that he was living a sinful lifestyle" on the other. That is hypocritical. You are either part of our fellowship or you are not. Do we want everyone to have lived a life such that a Catholic burial is the natural end? YES, of course! Can we pretend that that is so, when it is not? No, we can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309459406' post='2260977'] Would Jesus shun the man? Or his family? I don't think so. That's what the Church should stand for. Less public relations or more relations with the public. [/quote] Do you know exactly what's going on there? Does this personally affect you in a way that gives you more information than what can be read in the news? If it does, please share more so that we can understand where you're coming from and why you seem to be attacking the Church (I say seem because things aren't always what they seem). Also, WWJD is a terrible response to this. 1 - I've never heard any instance of that argument in which the person using it would actually know what Jesus would do. 2 - Remember that Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple (this is a different situation, but I'm illustrating that Jesus' actions proved there is such a thing as charitable negative consequences for immoral behavior, and to point out that He had mercy on those who repented, NOT those still engaging in the immoral behavior). 3 - Jesus is God. We are people. Therefore there may exist certain situations in which our actions might be wrong while His are right, just based on the nature of our levels of existence (like how it's a grave, grave, mortal sin if I go and try to celebrate the Eucharist, because I'm not a priest, but it's perfectly natural and extremely good for a priest to do so). This isn't about public relations - it's about maintaining Truth so that the Church can still shine as a beacon of light for all souls living. True Faith takes a leap, to let go of your own opinions and realize that the Church might actually be right about certain things that you think are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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