infinitelord1 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) The Church teaches that we receive the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in our Baptism. Are there examples in scripture where people immediately start exhibiting these Gifts after Baptism? or is there some kind of proof in scripture that we receive the Gifts from Baptism? Edited June 28, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Look for it in Acts of the Apostles. If I had more time I'd give you the Bible chapters and verses. Maybe tomorrow. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309239964' post='2259512'] Look for it in Acts of the Apostles. If I had more time I'd give you the Bible chapters and verses. Maybe tomorrow. : ) [/quote] Here is one... 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” is this the same as charisms? like speaking in tongues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Since the topic is so emotionally charged I recommend a good book by an authority in the Charismatic Renewal to understand the charisms as the renewal understands them: [img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517Xm37n%2BML._SL500_AA300_.jpg[/img] http://www.amazon.com/Your-Life-Holy-Spirit-Experience/dp/159325105X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1309294639&sr=8-5 For a systematic approach, you can read about the charisms in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309294730' post='2259888'] Since the topic is so emotionally charged I recommend a good book by an authority in the Charismatic Renewal to understand the charisms as the renewal understands them: [img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517Xm37n%2BML._SL500_AA300_.jpg[/img] [url="http://www.amazon.com/Your-Life-Holy-Spirit-Experience/dp/159325105X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1309294639&sr=8-5"]http://www.amazon.co...09294639&sr=8- 5[/url] For a systematic approach, you can read about the charisms in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. [/quote] I second this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309296490' post='2259896'] I second this. [/quote] Im not really sure how much I support the Catholic Charismatic movement at this time. I do believe that some people possess the Gift of Speaking in Tongues. But most of the Pentecostal stuff that you see is useless jargon that is learned behavior. The purpose of Charisms is for the building up of the Church. For a congregation of people to sit there and speak in tongues throughout the sermon is heresy in my opinion. What good is the gift of Speaking in tongues if it is only being done amongst believers? There is no point to it, and that is why I think it is a learned behavior in most cases. Speaking in Tongues was intended for non-believers to witness the power of the Holy Spirit in hopes that these non-believers would convert. Speaking in tongues is involuntary and you have no control over it. It just happens. You don't just will the Holy Spirit to speak in Tongues through you whenever you so please. Also, If you look at the historical writings of the Early Church Fathers on speaking in tongues....you will see that it became less and less common over time. I personally believe that it is because the Church was growing and growing, and speaking in tongues became less needed. As I mentioned before, The purpose of Charisms is for the building up of the Church. The Church is pretty big these days and is spread over pretty much the entire earth. Edited June 30, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1309394308' post='2260546'] Im not really sure how much I support the Catholic Charismatic movement at this time. I do believe that some people possess the Gift of Speaking in Tongues. But most of the Pentecostal stuff that you see is useless jargon that is learned behavior. The purpose of Charisms is for the building up of the Church. For a congregation of people to sit there and speak in tongues throughout the sermon is heresy in my opinion. What good is the gift of Speaking in tongues if it is only being done amongst believers? There is no point to it, and that is why I think it is a learned behavior in most cases. Speaking in Tongues was intended for non-believers to witness the power of the Holy Spirit in hopes that these non-believers would convert. Speaking in tongues is involuntary and you have no control over it. It just happens. You don't just will the Holy Spirit to speak in Tongues through you whenever you so please. [/quote] Of course the purpose of 'prayer tongues as they are sometimes called. I like to call them this to separate them from the Gift of Speaking in Tongues. Think of prayer tongues as a way of speaking to God when you can't think of anything else you could possibly think of to say. That is when the tongues come in and the Holy Spirit comes in and guides your mouth. I won't say this is entirely correct, but I only know from my own experience. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is a very dynamic, vibrant part of our Faith one that shouldn't be neglected. [quote] Also, If you look at the historical writings of the Early Church Fathers on speaking in tongues....you will see that it became less and less common over time. I personally believe that it is because the Church was growing and growing, and speaking in tongues became less needed. As I mentioned before, The purpose of Charisms is for the building up of the Church. The Church is pretty big these days and is spread over pretty much the entire earth. [/quote] True, and prayer tongues shouldn't be confused as a Chrism, it's more for personal spirituality. And yes the Church is spread out over the world, but we still speak in different 'tongues' if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309404438' post='2260624'] Of course the purpose of 'prayer tongues as they are sometimes called. I like to call them this to separate them from the Gift of Speaking in Tongues. Think of prayer tongues as a way of speaking to God when you can't think of anything else you could possibly think of to say. That is when the tongues come in and the Holy Spirit comes in and guides your mouth. I won't say this is entirely correct, but I only know from my own experience. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is a very dynamic, vibrant part of our Faith one that shouldn't be neglected. True, and prayer tongues shouldn't be confused as a Chrism, it's more for personal spirituality. And yes the Church is spread out over the world, but we still speak in different 'tongues' if you will. [/quote] [1 Corinthians 14:14-19]- For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Before giving in to the whole sale rejection of the charismatic renewal know that you could cause scandal by doing so publicly and therefore causing peril to your own soul. I have been cautious of it for 6 years since becoming Catholic and going to a school supported by the charismatic renewal. The fruits of the renewal are undeniable and magnified in the Church, and supported by both Pope Benedict XVI and Blessed John Paul II, not to mention countless priests and bishops. The type of hermeneutic you are engaged in by throwing out a Bible verse because you think it means something could very well land you in the thing you accuse others of - heresy. That is why I recommend real study of the renewal over a long period of time - years - before talking 'smack' about it. That is a lesson that took me years to learn. Dr. Schreck's book is a good start, followed by Ralph Martin's text, the Fulfillment of All Desire. More and more I see the renewal as fuel to propel one further into the spiritual life even approaching the first Dark Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309415295' post='2260709'] Before giving in to the whole sale rejection of the charismatic renewal know that you could cause scandal by doing so publicly and therefore causing peril to your own soul. I have been cautious of it for 6 years since becoming Catholic and going to a school supported by the charismatic renewal. The fruits of the renewal are undeniable and magnified in the Church, and supported by both Pope Benedict XVI and Blessed John Paul II, not to mention countless priests and bishops. The type of hermeneutic you are engaged in by throwing out a Bible verse because you think it means something could very well land you in the thing you accuse others of - heresy. That is why I recommend real study of the renewal over a long period of time - years - before talking 'smack' about it. That is a lesson that took me years to learn. Dr. Schreck's book is a good start, followed by Ralph Martin's text, the Fulfillment of All Desire. More and more I see the renewal as fuel to propel one further into the spiritual life even approaching the first Dark Night. [/quote] Well. If the Pope supports it then I support it as well. Whatever he says goes. I did not know the Pope supported it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 No, and sorry, if I sounded harsh. I just re-read what I wrote and it was mean. Here is Blessed John Paul II: "...This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. . . . Through this action, the Holy Spirit comes to the human spirit, and from this moment we begin to live again, to find our very selves, to find our identity, our total humanity. Consequently, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church." B XVI to the renewal: "As I have been able to affirm in other circumstances, the Ecclesial Movements and New Comunities which blossomed after the Second Vatican Council, constitute a unique gift of the Lord and a precious resource for the life of the Church. They should be accepted with trust and valued for the various contributions they place at the service of the common benefit in a an ordered and fruitful way. . . " I think many times teens fabricate experiences in the renewal, but I have seen its fruits with my own eyes through physical healing, conversions, joy, and more. I understand the hesitation, but yes, the Church accepts its authenticity, and the fruits of the renewal in priestly and religious vocations, conversions, and faith are mind numbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I think of the dangers of the charismatic renewal [i]can be[/i] the temptation to try and 'control' or 'self-orchestrate' experiences of God. This is a danger for everyone in their prayer lives- attempting to be in charge of our own prayer experiences. But I do think, given the nature of the charismatic renewal, this can be an even greater temptation. All that being said... it's an authentic movement in the Church. And it bears a lot of fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309574301' post='2261920'] No, and sorry, if I sounded harsh. I just re-read what I wrote and it was mean. Here is Blessed John Paul II: "...This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. . . . Through this action, the Holy Spirit comes to the human spirit, and from this moment we begin to live again, to find our very selves, to find our identity, our total humanity. Consequently, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church." B XVI to the renewal: "As I have been able to affirm in other circumstances, the Ecclesial Movements and New Comunities which blossomed after the Second Vatican Council, constitute a unique gift of the Lord and a precious resource for the life of the Church. They should be accepted with trust and valued for the various contributions they place at the service of the common benefit in a an ordered and fruitful way. . . " I think many times teens fabricate experiences in the renewal, but I have seen its fruits with my own eyes through physical healing, conversions, joy, and more. I understand the hesitation, but yes, the Church accepts its authenticity, and the fruits of the renewal in priestly and religious vocations, conversions, and faith are mind numbing. [/quote] Nothing wrong with being a little blunt at times. But I didn't see it that way anyways. I was thinking a little more into this whole thing, and i figure that since scripture mentions "praying in tongue" then praying in tongues exists. Therefore, I should not write it off. I think that I struggle with the renewal because I sense that a Foreign Entity (Pentecostals) had an influence on the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. And I'm not sure if I like the thought of that. But I guess its good in a sense because it shows Puritans how Catholics possess the Gifts of the Spirit as well. Who knows, maybe the Catholic Charasmatic Renewal may lead to some conversions. Edited July 2, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1309578895' post='2261967'] Nothing wrong with being a little blunt at times. But I didn't see it that way anyways. I was thinking a little more into this whole thing, and i figure that since scripture mentions "praying in tongue" then praying in tongues exists. Therefore, I should not write it off. I think that I struggle with the renewal because I sense that a Foreign Entity (Pentecostals) had an influence on the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. And I'm not sure if I like the thought of that. But I guess its good in a sense because it shows Puritans how Catholics possess the Gifts of the Spirit as well. Who knows, maybe the Catholic Charasmatic Renewal may lead to some conversions. [/quote] I think it has lead to more than a few conversions to the Catholic faith. With having no way to know for sure my best guess would in the high thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MargaretTeresa Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 This is an interesting thread! I'm at the point that what God wants, He can do. Let me being an instrument for His use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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