AccountDeleted Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='Maria' timestamp='1309235577' post='2259390'] That was supposed to be included as 'obvious,' because otherwise we'd all be saying it. I mean, it's completely, incomprehensibly amazing. I love the 5th mystery of light. [/quote] Obvious or not, it's what I love most. and if we all say it, then we understand what the Mass is all about. The rest of the Mass is beautiful but it is different everywhere I have been around the world, and although many things might change, even at the most horrible modern Masses, I find beauty because of the Consecration and Communion. Sure, I love the richness and tradition of the Latin Mass, but I have also found great beauty in very simple NO Masses as well, and good, humble priests and parishioners everywhere too. For me, all of the focus is on the mystery of the bread and wine becoming Jesus and the great grace in being allowed to receive Him. Just call me obvious..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309236101' post='2259406'] Obvious or not, it's what I love most. and if we all say it, then we understand what the Mass is all about. The rest of the Mass is beautiful but it is different everywhere I have been around the world, and although many things might change, even at the most horrible modern Masses, I find beauty because of the Consecration and Communion. Sure, I love the richness and tradition of the Latin Mass, but I have also found great beauty in very simple NO Masses as well, and good, humble priests and parishioners everywhere too. For me, all of the focus is on the mystery of the bread and wine becoming Jesus and the great grace in being allowed to receive Him. Just call me obvious..... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309236101' post='2259406'] Obvious or not, it's what I love most. and if we all say it, then we understand what the Mass is all about. The rest of the Mass is beautiful but it is different everywhere I have been around the world, and although many things might change, even at the most horrible modern Masses, I find beauty because of the Consecration and Communion. Sure, I love the richness and tradition of the Latin Mass, but I have also found great beauty in very simple NO Masses as well, and good, humble priests and parishioners everywhere too. For me, all of the focus is on the mystery of the bread and wine becoming Jesus and the great grace in being allowed to receive Him. Just call me obvious..... [/quote] Well, HELLO, Obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Nihil, is the liking rubrics that you're talking about liking them abstractly, or liking particular ones (even every particular one)? Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make? Because I can kind of like rubrics abstractly, but I can only really like & love particular ones that I've come to appreciate the meaning of. So, are you going to explain your insight into the meaning of the priest removing his cope and vest after the Asperges? Is it at every EF? because I don't think I remember it. I just remember the priest removing his biretta (or, in the case of our dominican, his hood) before the prayers at the foot of the altar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309236231' post='2259411'] Well, HELLO, Obvious! [/quote] Well HELLO not so Obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309236101' post='2259406'] ... I find beauty because of the Consecration and Communion. Sure, I love the richness and tradition of the Latin Mass, but I have also found great beauty in very simple NO Masses as well, and good, humble priests and parishioners everywhere too. For me, all of the focus is on the mystery of the bread and wine becoming Jesus and the great grace in being allowed to receive Him... [/quote] Isn't God wonderful? "The great grace in being allowed to receive Him" It's so stupendous and mind-boggling... that He should come at all, and that He should come to [i]me[/i]... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309236887' post='2259428'] Well HELLO not so Obvious! [/quote] Obviously the not-so-obvious is obvious to Obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='Maria' timestamp='1309237100' post='2259433'] Isn't God wonderful? "The great grace in being allowed to receive Him" It's so stupendous and mind-boggling... that He should come at all, and that He should come to [i]me[/i]... [/quote] Without the consecration and communion, none of the rest of it would matter at all. sure, some of it would still be beautiful but rubrics and chants and all the rest of it only make sense when placed in the contect of God sharing Himself with us through the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309237544' post='2259442'] Without the consecration and communion, none of the rest of it would matter at all. sure, some of it would still be beautiful but rubrics and chants and all the rest of it only make sense when placed in the contect of God sharing Himself with us through the Eucharist. [/quote] that's a very beautiful way of putting that, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309237222' post='2259435'] Obviously the not-so-obvious is obvious to Obvious. [/quote] Well, it's certainly obvious to Obvious that the not so Obvious knows he's not so Obvious, or at least not AS obvious as Obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309237682' post='2259447'] Well, it's certainly obvious to Obvious that the not so Obvious knows he's not so Obvious, or at least not AS obvious as Obvious. [/quote] Obviously. Or obviously not. I may have to diagram that sentence before I can decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Maria' timestamp='1309236718' post='2259422'] Nihil, is the liking rubrics that you're talking about liking them abstractly, or liking particular ones (even every particular one)? Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make? Because I can kind of like rubrics abstractly, but I can only really like & love particular ones that I've come to appreciate the meaning of. So, are you going to explain your insight into the meaning of the priest removing his cope and vest after the Asperges? Is it at every EF? because I don't think I remember it. I just remember the priest removing his biretta (or, in the case of our dominican, his hood) before the prayers at the foot of the altar. [/quote] Ooh, two-parter. I'll start from the second part. Afaik, it only occurs if there's an Asperges, which is at the High Mass, and not at Low Masses. From what I've read on the subject, you could interpret it as a public act of humiliation, almost. It's especially clear with the bishop's cappa magna, like Cardinal Burke used last year. [img]http://veneremurcernui.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/vespers41.jpg[/img] They strip off the cope (or cappa magna) as a symbol of their temporal authority [edit: this sentence reads better as "They strip off the cope, which is a symbol of their temporal authority] when the Mass begins (and before the entire congregation). In its place they put on the chasuble, which identifies them instead with Christ, because it symbolizes his liturgical role as an alter Christus. With that understanding, assuming that I'm correct in my interpretation, it reminds me very much of a couple different parts later in the Mass. The first is the priest's confiteor, after which the [i]servers[/i] say "[i]Misereatur tui omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis tuis, perducat te ad vitam aeternam.[/i] ([color="#000080"]May almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins, and bring you to everlasting life.[/color])" Then also that part at the end of the offertory where the priest prays desperately to be made worthy to offer the Holy Sacrifice to God. [i]Orate fratres, et meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat apud Deum Patrem omnipotentem.[/i] ([color="#000080"]Pray brethren, that my Sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty.[/color]) Even as far as to literally strike himself at certain points, and speak audibly during otherwise inaudible parts of the Mass, for the entire congregation to hear. It fits perfectly together with so many parts of the Mass that emphasize our complete unworthiness before God. [color="#000080"]Domine, non sum dignus, et intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea. [/color] I think for me, that line is perhaps the most powerful in the entire Mass. Then, right there, right in the face of our unworthiness and disgrace, "[color="#000080"]Quid retribuam Domino pro omnibus quae retribuit mihi? Calicem salutaris accipiam, et nomen Domini invoacbo. Laudans invocabo Dominum, et ab inimicis meis salvus ero[/color]." What return shall I make to the Lord for all He has given me? I will take the chalice of salvation, and I will call upon the Name of the Lord. Praising will I call upon the Lord and I shall be saved from my enemies. Just as in Baptism we died with Christ, die to ourselves, we also rise with Him washed in His blood. Romans 6: [1] What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? [3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. As to the first part, I say both. We can like particular rubrics, as I'm talking about here, and we can like the rubrics as a whole. For different reasons, of course. The different rubrics can be analyzed, and from each one we can learn new and amazing things about the theology in the Mass. We could love each individual one in that way. For liking them as a whole, I say they're amesome. The rubrics are a gift. Rules are sometimes restricting and binding, but not the rules that govern the Mass. It is precisely within those rules, even when they [i]appear[/i] to be arbitrary, that we are actually free. Those rules are sometimes what saves us from unintentional disrespect. They can save us from our own ignorance. They also pass down to us part of the expression of our Holy Mass that was passed down throughout the ages. The Mass of so many saints, given to us in an organic and unbroken line. We could understand the rubrics as an operating manual for the greatest gift we could ever be given. Edited June 28, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I love offering myself completely to the Father, in union with the Sacrifice of Jesus, and then, after having given completely of myself, being filled completely with my Lord, so that it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... When I was at Mass with my sisters, I noticed a small, but beautiful gesture that they do during the offertory... when the two sisters go to bring up the gifts, everyone stands, and then as the two sisters who presented the gifts returned to their seats, everyone sat back down. The symbolism of the whole community offering both the gifts and themselves, together, to the priest, to offer to God. It was beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309238370' post='2259459'] I love offering myself completely to the Father, in union with the Sacrifice of Jesus, and then, after having given completely of myself, being filled completely with my Lord, so that it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... When I was at Mass with my sisters, I noticed a small, but beautiful gesture that they do during the offertory... when the two sisters go to bring up the gifts, everyone stands, and then as the two sisters who presented the gifts returned to their seats, everyone sat back down. The symbolism of the whole community offering both the gifts and themselves, together, to the priest, to offer to God. It was beautiful. [/quote] Uh oh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309238370' post='2259459'] I love offering myself completely to the Father, in union with the Sacrifice of Jesus, and then, after having given completely of myself, being filled completely with my Lord, so that it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... When I was at Mass with my sisters, I noticed a small, but beautiful gesture that they do during the offertory... when the two sisters go to bring up the gifts, everyone stands, and then as the two sisters who presented the gifts returned to their seats, everyone sat back down. The symbolism of the whole community offering both the gifts and themselves, together, to the priest, to offer to God. It was beautiful. [/quote] very neat. i'd like to ask, if anyone has a problem with this post, that they quote it into a new, and separate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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