Girm Is Changing Too...

[Cam42]

From Fr. Z's blog....

[quote]When the new English translation of the [i]Roman Missal[/i] is released, it will sport a new translation of the GIRM, the [i]General Institution/Instruction of the Roman Missal.[/i] There are, of course, adaptations for the USA and other Anglophone regions.

As it happens, the Congregation for Divine Worship has … tweaked some items. I am sure this was to harmonize the language of the GIRM with the language of the rest of the [i]Roman Missal[/i]. However, tweaks may have been tweaked for other reasons.

For example, take a look at GIRM 160 for the USA. The Latin is found on the [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/romanmissalind.shtml"]USCCB website[/url].

[b]LATIN[/b]:
… Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit. Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant.

[b][img]http://www.wdtprs.com/images2/11_06_24_First_Communion.jpg[/img]OLDER USA ADAPTATION VERSION[/b]:
… The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

[b]NEWER USA ADAPTATION VERSION[/b]:
… The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91).

The rest of GIRM 160 remains as it was.

There is no mention of addressing the instances “pastorally” or giving “properly catechizing” people who kneel to receive their [b][i]GOD[/i][/b].

In other words, when people kneel to receive Almighty [b][i]GOD[/i][/b], priests and other ministers are to give Communion to the person and [i]keep their mouths shut[/i]

[/quote]
[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/06/what-does-girm-160-for-the-usa-really-say/"]source[/url]

This means I will never have to justify kneeling to receive Our Lord ever again....if I happen to be at a Novus Ordo Mass. Do you know how liberating that feels?

[mortify]

It's sad that a priest has asked me to stand up to receive our Lord. I'll print a copy and keep it in my pocket next time

[CatherineM]

If I knelt to receive communion, it would require a visit by Fire/Rescue, and would probably end up on the 11 O'clock news.

[faithcecelia]

I always receive standing, but am stunned that people have been 'told off' for kneeling, that sounds insane! I am pleased the new instructions allow it. The only time I have known it mentioned was a Mass with around 5000 communicants, where they said 'it would be helpful if you do not kneel' to help the process run smoothly and not have people climbing over each other etc, but it certainly wasn't forbidden there. My parish here have the front pews reserved for those who wish to kneel, they just file in there and the priest goes to them, again this avoids people who stand tripping over their legs etc.

[Cam42]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1308952181' post='2258274']
It's sad that a priest has asked me to stand up to receive our Lord. I'll print a copy and keep it in my pocket next time
[/quote]

I've had that happen too...I ignored him and he gave me Holy Communion. He won't cause a scene after he already caused one....

It is my right to receive on my knees and EVERY SINGLE priest knows this, whether they admit it or not...

[Cam42]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1308952724' post='2258282']
I always receive standing, but am stunned that people have been 'told off' for kneeling, that sounds insane! I am pleased the new instructions allow it. The only time I have known it mentioned was a Mass with around 5000 communicants, where they said 'it would be helpful if you do not kneel' to help the process run smoothly and not have people climbing over each other etc, but it certainly wasn't forbidden there. My parish here have the front pews reserved for those who wish to kneel, they just file in there and the priest goes to them, again this avoids people who stand tripping over their legs etc.
[/quote]

I wonder how they did it before the Council? I mean you never hear stories about how little old ladies broke their faces from tripping over legs in the olden days; 1969 years of kneeling and not one major injury from "Communion Foot Drag"...yet that is the biggest concern everyone has now? Perhaps that is a misconception? Me thinks it might just be so....

It is just another reason to strip a piece of Catholicity away from the Mass...

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308953273' post='2258286']
I wonder how they did it before the Council? I mean you never hear stories about how little old ladies broke their faces from tripping over legs in the olden days; 1969 years of kneeling and not one major injury from "Communion Foot Drag"...yet that is the biggest concern everyone has now? Perhaps that is a misconception? Me thinks it might just be so....

It is just another reason to strip a piece of Catholicity away from the Mass...
[/quote]


Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree. But can see that when everyone is doing the same, as they did in the past, they all knew what to expect and so knew to watch. Now that the majority stand it is more likely to catch someone out if the person in front of them kneels. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its a major danger or that it needs a formal risk assessment, just that keeping the front pews works very well here. It also helps those kneeling, who (here) are generally the elderly, as they have the kneeler to kneel on and the rail at the front to use to help them get up.

My home parish had quite a number who knelt and didn't use the pews, and no youre right, people weren't falling all over the place, but there were times people needed help getting themselves up (an observation, not a justification). But at that parish they couldn't have reserved pews for this anyway as the church was always standing room only for Sunday Mass.





Purely out of interest, if those who choose to kneel are at a parish where most stand, do you kneel again for Christ's Blood? I have never paid attention to what happens here. Thanks

Edited June 24, 2011 by faithcecelia

[Cam42]

double post...

Edited June 24, 2011 by Cam42

[Papist]

[font="Arial"][size="3"]I believe kneeling during Mass is a medieval innovation, a development of the feudal practice of kneeling in obeisance before the overlord or prince, and was unknown in Catholic worship before feudal times. I personally believe kneeling to receive on the tongue is a good posture. However, someone with physical incapability of kneeling and getting back up without pain or commotion should not be looked at with disdain if they receive while standing. Just as someone kneeling to receive should not be looked at as 'holier than thou'.

=

[/size][/font] [color="black"][b][font="Arial"][size="3"]Dubium[/size][/font][/b][/color][color="black"][font="Arial"][size="3"]: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the [/size][/font][i][font="Arial"][size="3"]Missale Romanum[/size][/font][/i][font="Arial"][size="3"], [/size][/font][i][font="Arial"][size="3"]editio typica tertia[/size][/font][/i][font="Arial"][size="3"], to forbid this practice?[/size][/font][/color]
[color="black"][b][font="Arial"] [/font][/b][/color]
[color="black"] [/color] [color="black"][b][font="Arial"][size="3"]Responsum:[/size][/font][/b][/color][color="black"] [/color][i][color="black"][font="Arial"][size="3"]Negative, et ad mentem[/size][/font][/color][/i][color="black"][font="Arial"][size="3"]. The [/size][/font][i][font="Arial"][size="3"]mens[/size][/font][/i][font="Arial"][size="3"] is that that the prescription of the [/size][/font][i][font="Arial"][size="3"]Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani[/size][/font][/i][font="Arial"][size="3"], no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits acertain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts ofthe celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, [/size][/font][b][font="Arial"][size="3"]to not regulate posture rigidly[/size][/font][/b][font="Arial"][size="3"] in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.[/size][/font][/color] [color="black"] [/color][font="Arial"][size="3"]Francis Cardinal Arinze[/size][/font]

Edited June 27, 2011 by Papist

[AccountDeleted]

In the old days there were communion rails which helped a lot. I attended latin mass for six months and we had communion rails there, which it made it impossible to receive any other way since the priest stoode behind them and he used a server to hold the paten. I think it would be great to go back to it, but our modern churches are not really designed to make this easy - in fact some of them make kneeling during the Mass almost impossible because they only have chairs, and they are crammed closely together, leaving no room to kneel. I still do it anyway, but I am usually the only one doing it!

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309177719' post='2259045']
In the old days there were communion rails which helped a lot. I attended latin mass for six months and we had communion rails there, which it made it impossible to receive any other way since the priest stoode behind them and he used a server to hold the paten. I think it would be great to go back to it, but our modern churches are not really designed to make this easy - in fact [b]some of them make kneeling during the Mass almost impossible because they only have chairs, and they are crammed closely together, leaving no room to kneel. I still do it anyway, but I am usually the only one doing it!
[/b][/quote]


I totally agree! I have been involved in discussions about seating changes in a couple of churches, and would fight for pews over chairs any day. They are far easier for kneeling, they dont move and bang about if they get knocked/walked into, and you 'make your own space' as in a family or friends can squish up if they choose to or you can leave a gap if you are more comfortable that way.

Actually, when chairs were put forward as an option at my old parish the priest and I spent a morning (I worked there) working out how many the pews could seat and how many chairs would go in the same space. It would have meant a reduction of about 70 places, which was the decider as all Sunday Masses were standing room only by 10mins before Mass started.

[Papist]

I believe the communion rail could help people to be more able to receive while kneeling. And I don't think it would take as long as some people might think.

[AccountDeleted]

Actually, I think the Communion rail makes it go more quickly because everyone lines across it and as soon as one is done, the priest moves onto the next with no stopping, while the person who has received gets up and goes back to their pew and another one takes their place at the rail. There was never any stopping really at the Latin Mass as the line up the aisle moved so quickly towards the rail because so many people could move up to the rail so quickly. With two priests, they went as far as the centre and then moved back to the beginning again, each one doing one side of the church. And of course, since there was no precious Blood, there was no second line as well. I suppose some people might object to that, but perhaps (in the NO Mass only) an EMC could follow the priest, offering the precious Blood, so before someone left the rail, they waited for this - shouldn't take any longer, and if they didn't want to receive, they could just leave.

I really miss the Communion rails.

[faithcecelia]

I went to the first Ordinariate Mass at my parish yesterday (and loved it, but thats another thread ). I had wondered how they would go about communion as I know the Anglican Church have kneeling as the norm, and yes it was yesterday. The front pews, which are reserved for all who choose to recieve kneeling in a parish Mass were used by everyone, and this was put in the service booklet so it was clear - as it was the first there were quite a few parish 'supporters' who are unlikely to be at most. It worked fine. The Ord. priest went along both sides of the church giving us the Body of Christ and the Parish priest (again, there this once as a supporter) and a EMHC had a side each with the Precious Blood. It worked very well and smoothly, I think that if everyone (or the vast majority, barring elderly etc) do it its about the same time.

Interestingly, my parish church does still have its altar rails, I wonder if they chose to stick with using the front pews as thats already there as an option in that parish masses? No idea. Not sure where they use for Tridentine Masses, may find out on Wednesday if I get to the morning Mass.

[Papist]

I wish we had a lot more parishes, allowing them to be smaller. We have parishes in our diocese with close to, if not over, 3,000 families.