Cam42 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1308941989' post='2258164'] I just watched the video again and it's stunning... equating the welfare society with abortion and gay marriage. Yep, those are the same things. He refers to people on Medicaid and food stamps as a cancer that must be removed. Apparently getting an STB doesn't require study and appreciation for Catholic social teaching?? Or Christianity? ETA I'm sorry for derailing this thread! [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St9kZqWxNfU[/media] I don't know if I completely disagree... He's not wrong in saying that it is a false understanding of liberty to expect welfare, abortion and gay marriage a right. Oh, and Catholic social teaching...well there are inherent flaws in that too....especially when it comes to the CCHD. That's right, the Catholic Committee on Human Development....the Social Justice Arm of the USCCB. They are riddled with pro-abort supporters and STAFF!!! Catholic Social teaching in this country is flawed. Fatally flawed... His response though is this... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhxd2pBym_g[/media] Michael Voris gets it...he gets it that he is hard hitting, but he also gets that he be self critical.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308946419' post='2258205'][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhxd2pBym_g[/media][/quote]Dribble. The only thing he does to remotely rebuttal these supposed "atheist attacks" is to personally attack them, with deplorable attacks. Which he never mentions once how he knows their atheists or even once specifically addresses any of their "attacks". In fact, I bet there must be at least one objection that even he finds remotely valid, but its not addressed. So basically this video is a defensive cry baby rant at how their being victims... Psychological splitting can be a serious problem for hyper-religious people. So according to him having a "catholic monarch" supposedly will choose christ rather than satan, even though historically those catholic monarchs didn't always agree with the pope, church, or catholicism. I guess this satan can even corrupt a catholic monarch? Wait... doesn't that... no it couldn't disprove his argument, why would he keep making it if it did? I must be another stupid hate filled atheist.. Really, sarcasm aside ([i]9/10[/i]), people like this make Catholics look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308950668' post='2258255'] Dribble. The only thing he does to remotely rebuttal these supposed "atheist attacks" is to personally attack them, with deplorable attacks. Which he never mentions once how he knows their atheists or even once specifically addresses any of their "attacks". In fact, I bet there must be at least one objection that even he finds remotely valid, but its not addressed. So basically this video is a defensive cry baby rant at how their being victims... Psychological splitting can be a serious problem for hyper-religious people. So according to him having a "catholic monarch" supposedly will choose christ rather than satan, even though historically those catholic monarchs didn't always agree with the pope, church, or catholicism. I guess this satan can even corrupt a catholic monarch? Wait... doesn't that... no it couldn't disprove his argument, why would he keep making it if it did? I must be another stupid hate filled atheist.. Really, sarcasm aside ([i]9/10[/i]), people like this make Catholics look bad. [/quote] You need to go to the you tube site to see what was written, it is pretty bad... He isn't attacking them ad hominem, he is refuting what they say, directly. That is a big difference. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't find any of the attacks valid, nice attempt at projection though...I'll give you that... So, basically this video is NOT a defensive cry baby rant at how they are being victims.... You're right, psychological splitting can be a serious problem for the hyper-religious, but it can also be a serious problem for atheists. And if the Catholic monarch, which is an ideal mind you, not a reality at this point, is virtuous, then he can work for the greater glory of God. But, he never says that a Catholic monarch is above temptation or that a Catholic monarch is above reproach. He is not speaking to the particular, he is speaking to the universal when it applies...so actually you're committing a fallacy by applying his universal to a particular and portraying it as such... Yes, Satan can influence a Catholic monarch, they are human and they are fallen. They need redemption as much as you and I need redemption. The reality is that you just don't want to accept his principle, because you fancy yourself an atheist, that's fine...but call your spade a spade...don't try to derail him with fallacy and innuendo. And no, you're not another stupid atheist. You're a fallen away Catholic, who needs love and support from the Church you walked away from. We'll be here for you, whenever you need us...the door is always open...always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Guess I'm a cancer then. Let's see, if I have to choose, I'd like to be called something exotic and untreatable. Most cancers are treatable if caught early, but maybe something like what John Travolta had in that movie where he became a genius overnight. If I'm going to be a cancer, might as well be a famous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 So much hate speech coming from someone speaking out against hate speech? Not to mention he just looks like another ill informed Catholic ranting and whining because others will not submit to the doctrine of their group. Secularism is a step foward. I don't trust one figure (the Pope) to know what's best for humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To Jesus Through Mary Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I have been follow this guy for a long time. He has some great pod-casts. Some of these ideas he had are on the radical side, but almost for the shock value of trying to wake up Catholics to see what is really going on. What culture we live in. We quietly sit by as our children are being slaughtered in the name of rights, the sacrament of marriage is being manipulated to blasphemy, and the culture of death invades ever aspect of our lives (yes, like a cancer). I am not quite sure how I feel about the whole Catholic monarchy thing, but IMO he is right on about the voting. Politicians have been learning how to yank at the chains of self-love for a long time. They have perfected it to a science. We will always need to have some sort of welfare system. But as the system stands now, it is an utter failure. It traps people in the system and gives a sense of entitlement to government support. Which in turns takes away dignity of the worker. Not to mention the more dependent a person is on the government the more control the government has over that person. It must be taken back to the local level. To help the person in the immediate situation, but also help them to not be dependent on welfare for survival. Granted there are certain persons, without family support/resources, that are unable to work due to disability. They are obviously a different kind of case. I have been working as a missionary in New York for almost 3 years and have seen 1st hand the destruction welfare has on the culture. People being stuck in the system, with little help to get out. Ultimately, it must be a conversion of soul to desire a different life. Not to mention if a person is on medicaid we (as taxpayers) pay for their abortions (mothers health clause- mental health due to finances. So yes, you are paying for abortions) and contraceptives (which do NOT reduce the number of unwanted pregnancy, despite popular belief. But that is a whole other topic). Also see many people selling food stamps 2-1 for cash or stores willing to let them get anything with their benefits card (junk food shouldn't be purchased with food stamps IMO). But when they go to vote, who do you think they will vote for? The one who allows this life-style or the one who is threatening to take it away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephaDrigan Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 It seems like everyone thinks that democracy is perfect and all, but it's not for exactly the reasons he presented. Of course, creating a decent government in itself would be its own problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='CephaDrigan' timestamp='1308972403' post='2258374'] It seems like everyone thinks that democracy is perfect and all, but it's not for exactly the reasons he presented. Of course, creating a decent government in itself would be its own problem. [/quote] Democracy, perfect? [url="http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Economics-Politics-Monarchy-Natural/dp/0765808684"]Democracy: The God That Failed[/url] I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) The guy just seems maniacal. Yes, to paraphrase Churchill, democracy is the very worst of political systems. Except for all the other ones. That doesn't mean the answer is living under a dictator. Or restricting the right to vote to the "virtuous" Catholics. I wonder who gets to determine who is a good enough Catholic to vote. From his videos it appears Mr. Voris would think he's qualified. There will always be people trying to game the system but for the majority of people it is not that way. I work with people on Medicaid all the time. The Church considers healthcare, housing, food, etc to be basic human rights. It appears Voris does not agree with this very clear teaching. I hesitate to use the H word but I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be eager to use it about others. There is no in-depth theology behind his stance, it's all ideology. Would that our theologians received their primary formation as Christians and not as freemarketers or Marxists. Edited June 25, 2011 by Maggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308952735' post='2258283'] Guess I'm a cancer then. Let's see, if I have to choose, I'd like to be called something exotic and untreatable. Most cancers are treatable if caught early, but maybe something like what John Travolta had in that movie where he became a genius overnight. If I'm going to be a cancer, might as well be a famous one. [/quote] Luckily it's only a small population population that considers entitlement users a cancer. The rest of the Church tries to have a preferential option for the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1308980649' post='2258476'] The guy just seems maniacal. Yes, to paraphrase Churchill, democracy is the very worst of political systems. Except for all the other ones. That doesn't mean the answer is living under a dictator. Or restricting the right to vote to the "virtuous" Catholics. I wonder who gets to determine who is a good enough Catholic to vote. From his videos it appears Mr. Voris would think he's qualified. There will always be people trying to game the system but for the majority of people it is not that way. I work with people on Medicaid all the time. The Church considers healthcare, housing, food, etc to be basic human rights. It appears Voris does not agree with this very clear teaching. I hesitate to use the H word but I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be eager to use it about others. There is no in-depth theology behind his stance, it's all ideology. Would that our theologians received their primary formation as Christians and not as freemarketers or Marxists. [/quote] Oh, I don't know, the theocracy which is governed by the Papacy has been in effect for 2000 years...to a lesser or greater extent. That seems to work pretty well, even if society at large has reduced it to 108 acres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To Jesus Through Mary Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1308980649' post='2258476'] There will always be people trying to game the system but for the majority of people it is not that way. I work with people on Medicaid all the time. The Church considers healthcare, housing, food, etc to be basic human rights. It appears Voris does not agree with this very clear teaching. I hesitate to use the H word but I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be eager to use it about others. There is no in-depth theology behind his stance, it's all ideology. Would that our theologians received their primary formation as Christians and not as freemarketers or Marxists. [/quote] I have found the opposite to be true, that the majority of people on benefits are capable of working and providing for themselves in other means. I have found there is a spirit of entitlement that goes with it. Also see this same sense of entitlement meant when it comes to abortion (One of my ministries is as a crisis pregnancy counselor- I desire to have responsible free sex. Quote I hear far to often "I know it's selfish. I shouldn't kill it. But I don't want to have this baby because..."). It is more about a mentality of self-love and entitlement then about any singular issue. This sense of entitlement is what the politicians are appealing to. Yes, housing, food, and so on are considered basic human rights. I don't think he was arguing against that, but the culture and mentality that comes with our current welfare-state (as it is setup) But must they be provided for by the government? Worse yet, in such a system that those funding these programs never see who it is effecting, or how it is being implemented? Or because it is on such a large-scale and top-down approach so much waste is created in the process that little of the resources actually reach those for which it is intended? Or because the processes is so far removed from reality, those responsible for the funds never know how they are used by the people on welfare? not to mention, this system only address one aspect of the person- does little to nothing to help in the long run. It is taking away the dignity of the worker. (which Catholic social teaching also addresses) On a practical level, the system obviously doesn't work. On a spiritual level, it is feeding into and cultivating this entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1309002386' post='2258546'] I have found the opposite to be true, that the majority of people on benefits are capable of working and providing for themselves in other means. I have found there is a spirit of entitlement that goes with it. Also see this same sense of entitlement meant when it comes to abortion (One of my ministries is as a crisis pregnancy counselor- I desire to have responsible free sex. Quote I hear far to often "I know it's selfish. I shouldn't kill it. But I don't want to have this baby because..."). It is more about a mentality of self-love and entitlement then about any singular issue. This sense of entitlement is what the politicians are appealing to. Yes, housing, food, and so on are considered basic human rights. I don't think he was arguing against that, but the culture and mentality that comes with our current welfare-state (as it is setup) But must they be provided for by the government? Worse yet, in such a system that those funding these programs never see who it is effecting, or how it is being implemented? Or because it is on such a large-scale and top-down approach so much waste is created in the process that little of the resources actually reach those for which it is intended? Or because the processes is so far removed from reality, those responsible for the funds never know how they are used by the people on welfare? not to mention, this system only address one aspect of the person- does little to nothing to help in the long run. It is taking away the dignity of the worker. (which Catholic social teaching also addresses) On a practical level, the system obviously doesn't work. On a spiritual level, it is feeding into and cultivating this entitlement. [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI[/media] I wonder how that's working for her? Here's how gas prices have looked in the last 3 years... [url="http://www.GasBuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?city1=USA%20Average&city2=USA%20Average&city3=&crude=n&tme=36&units=us"]Gas prices 2008-2011[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309000350' post='2258541'] Oh, I don't know, the theocracy which is governed by the Papacy has been in effect for 2000 years...to a lesser or greater extent. That seems to work pretty well, even if society at large has reduced it to 108 acres. [/quote] Ironically it has worked well only in the latter part of that period, as the papacy has divested itself (or been stripped of) most of its political power. At the height of its political significance, the papacy was not the prestige position we know it as and the (political) leadership was often ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1309008925' post='2258562'] Ironically it has worked well only in the latter part of that period, as the papacy has divested itself (or been stripped of) most of its political power. At the height of its political significance, the papacy was not the prestige position we know it as and the (political) leadership was often ineffective. [/quote] But through all of the human drama that you just described, it still exists...and that is Michael Voris's point. Name another mode of government which has been around for 2000 years uninterrupted and not overthrown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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