Catholic Vs Catholic Debate And The Art Of Phorum Maintenance

[dominicansoul]

i think dUSt should just shut down phatmass for a month when peeps act up on it... that'll teach us....
















[size="1"]edited because i wanted to[/size]

Edited June 27, 2011 by dominicansoul

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1309137358' post='2258945']
i think dUSt should just shut down phatmass for a month when peeps act up on it... that'll teach us....

[/quote]
Best idea yet!

[CatherineM]

I'd go through withdrawal, but probably get a lot of housework done.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309149194' post='2258991']
I'd go through withdrawal, but probably get a lot of housework done.
[/quote]
Same here...although, at the moment, I would be very upset, since I like being able to ask the moms on here for advice while preparing for the baby.

[jmjtina]

Did anyone see the Green Lantern?

This is like making that yellow lantern ring. I vote no.

but that's just me.

and my vote.

[ClareOfAssisi]

I think it's a good idea to allow the Catholic v Catholic debates and have them in a separate forum. [u]However, please make this forum visible to non-Church Militant members[/u]. Reading debates like these have played a big part in shaping and strengthening my faith over the years.

[Totus Tuus]

You know, I've thought more about it, and I really feel like Catholics who debate against each other should really just have their accounts deleted.

I know that sounds really harsh, but even with a separate board for them, we are 1. still allowing it, just not allowing it to be viewed by outsiders, and 2. those arguments are still going to exist until the mods notice them and move them to the board (unless people start them in the board, which I don't foresee happening all the time).

At the very least, I think that people should have their accounts deleted *if* they start arguments outside of the board for the public to see.

Anyway, that's just me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309135899' post='2258939']
Please link me to an example. I don't know of any threads where phatmass Catholics are arguing in favor of homosexuality and contraception.
[/quote]
There's been more examples in here through the years than I have time to look up and slog through, though I am sure many can attest that there have been a number of self-identified "Catholics" who have argued against the Church's teachings on sexual morality, as well as in favor of pro-abortion politicians, and for keeping abortion legal (even if admitting abortion itself is morally wrong). There have also been a few liberal "Catholics" on here who disagree with virtually all the Church's teachings.

If you mean by "Phatmass Catholics," those with a "Church Militant" or "Church Scholar" tag, then perhaps not so much (though there have been some on here with tags taking some extremely "phishy" stances, but I don't feel like rehashing that whole controversy again here).
However there are plenty of people who self-identify on here as "Catholic" who hold views in opposition to the Church's teachings on faith and morals.
(As most "rad trads" on here are promptly slapped with a "phishy" tag, the lack of militant tags and such shouldn't be an issue.)

Running a simple search, this thread came up on top, in which at least three self-identifying as "Catholic" argued against the Church in favor of homosexual adoption:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=111416 (One no longer identifies as "Catholic," but did at the time of that thread.)

IN this recent thread, one of those, argues in favor of teaching and promoting artificial contraception (while claiming to agree with the Church that it is wrong):
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113221&st=80

Edited June 27, 2011 by Socrates

[Sylvanna Imbris]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308972289' post='2258372']
[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308953851' post='2258292']
And this is the problem I see with Catholic v. Catholic debate. If I don't see things the way you do, I am wrong, and therefore not entitled to my opinion. If I don't like chant, or Latin liturgy, or kneeling to receive communion, then I have committed a fallacy. I'm going to dinner with my husband now, and I will certainly be eating babies. That is what you think I do, right?
[/quote]
This is exactly right. Throwing documents at each other til one side gets tired and gives in is not conducive: " I'll throw in two more pope quotes, against your 3 saint quotes" because one side will just dogpile it on because its your way or nothing. People make everything thing TOTALLY essential or its wrong, and the church simply doesn't function that way.
[/quote]
[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309016123' post='2258605']
[size="2"]Although I would not be able to participate, I will submit my two cents anyway.[/size]

[size="2"]For such a forum, I believe a key rule should be that one cannot tell anyone what they should or should not do. Rather explain what you do and why.[/size]

[size="2"]For example, don't tell someone he should receive the Eucharist on the tongue and not the hand. Rather explain how you receive and why. I believe this would make the forum more productive and less threatening. The less you address your post to an individual, the better.[/size]
[/quote]
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309126273' post='2258921']
And how do you define "Catholic vs. Catholic" debate anyway? - It seems there are many areas in which Catholics can legitimately hold differing opinions. It would definitely not be productive to try to eliminate all disagreement between Catholics on any topic.
[/quote]
I'm new here and I don't want to offend anyone, so please be patient with me...I think I know what might help...
Ever since I was little, whenever we (my immediate family) went to a large family gathering these same types of debates would pop up. I've seen how people can be hurt by them and how it can push them away from the Church. But I think the most harmful thing is not what was discussed, but the way in which things were discussed. Personal attacks were never made...except on the other person's standing as a faithful Catholic.
[b]The problem is that no distinction was made between doctrine and discipline.[/b]
As I understand it (from reading [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0807btb.asp"]this article[/url] at Catholic Answers) with matters of doctrine (such as the resurrection) if you are truly Catholic, you believe it. The Church teaches it and it is not going to change. With matters of discipline (such as which days are Holy Days of Obligation) you can debate about it and still be Catholic. The Church may change its teaching on the matter, and has in the past. Often, at least in my diocese, permission is given to move the Holy Day to Sunday.

In many cases, the debates that go round and round here are about matters of discipline. I'd agree with Papist on these. We shouldn't be telling anyone what they can or can't do in these matters. Some things are allowed by the local bishop in one area but not in another. It doesn't make you any more or less Catholic if your bishop does or doesn't allow girls to be altar servers (for example). It is a matter of discipline. If he says, "no girl altar servers," then you have to obey. But you aren't necessarily a bad Catholic if you don't agree with his decision. If he says, "girl altar servers are OK," then you don't have a right to tell other people to stop letting girls be altar servers. The bishop has the power to bind and lose in these matters, not you. You can say why you think something would be a good idea or bad idea, but you shouldn't say that other people MUST do what you say.

This is quite different from matters of doctrine. With doctrine, you can't disagree and be a good Catholic. You can ask questions, you can be confused, but you can't be truly Catholic and say that the Church is wrong about it.

So I would suggest that debating doctrine not be allowed at all but that a special board be made for debating discipline, so long as no one is telling someone else what they should or shouldn't do.

I also think it would be helpful if the phorum guidelines made it clear what Catholic vs. Catholic debate means. I would think Catholics could debate on things not related to the Church, but perhaps there is also room for discussion about the disciplines of the Church, so long as it is respectful of others.
Thanks for listening.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1308937853' post='2258140']
OK, so the "No Catholic vs Catholic debate" rule has been a long standing rule here at phatmass for quite some time. I've explained the reasons for this rule many many times, with the main reason being, the debates often cause scandal, and can easily be misinterpreted by non-Catholics, young Catholics, and lukewarm Catholics who may be struggling with their faith.

Basically, the debates often turn into the equivalent of "airing our dirty laundry", and I just didn't want phatmass to be a venue for that. I've never said these types of discussions shouldn't exist, but rather, I didn't want phatmass to be consumed by them.

So, with that said, [b]we still have a problem with Catholic vs Catholic debate occurring in the phorum[/b]. Just look. It's all over the place.

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I see one of two things happening:

[list=1][*]I instruct my mods to start enforcing the Catholic vs Catholic rule a lot more strictly, issuing warnings for violaters (on [b]both[/b] sides of the argument), with suspensions to follow[*]I create a board specifically for Catholic vs Catholic debate. This board would have the following restrictions: Non-viewable by the public. Only viewable by Church Militant and above (so non-Catholics and new members would not even see it)[/list]

If option number two is the consensus, [b]ALL[/b] phorum rules would still apply, [b]except[/b] the Catholic vs Catholic rule. Personal attacks, negative criticism, profanity, etc, etc... All of those rules would still be enforced. In other words, this would not be another "Back Alley" where bad threads are moved.

Anyway, at this point, I'd like some feedback and perspective. I want to eliminate Catholic vs Catholic debate from the public view one way or the other, because it has gotten way out of hand. I'm still struggling with the best approach. Either way, there will be some people who are unhappy.

Help pham!
[/quote]

So... do I have to request an upgrade to "Church Militant" now?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1309197701' post='2259117']
Running a simple search, this thread came up on top, in which at least three self-identifying as "Catholic" argued against the Church in favor of homosexual adoption:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=111416 (One no longer identifies as "Catholic," but did at the time of that thread.)

IN this recent thread, one of those, argues in favor of teaching and promoting artificial contraception (while claiming to agree with the Church that it is wrong):
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113221&st=80
[/quote]
Thanks. Based on those two threads, I've given two people "I do not rep the church" tags. Just because I'm the webmaster doesn't mean I read every post. Me and the mods rely on the "report" button more than anything. If nobody reports, it's easily overlooked.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309217609' post='2259254']
Thanks. Based on those two threads, I've given two people "I do not rep the church" tags. Just because I'm the webmaster doesn't mean I read every post. Me and the mods rely on the "report" button more than anything. If nobody reports, it's easily overlooked.
[/quote]
It is good to see steps like that taken when necessary. My approval is irrelevant, but I approve.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm hoping Phatmass will host the ultimate showdown of professional Catholics. Round One: Mark Shea vs. Michael Voris.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1309223443' post='2259289']
I'm hoping Phatmass will host the ultimate showdown of professional Catholics. Round One: Mark Shea vs. Michael Voris.
[/quote]
i think teh interwebz would blow up.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1309223443' post='2259289']
I'm hoping Phatmass will host the ultimate showdown of professional Catholics. Round One: Mark Shea vs. Michael Voris.
[/quote]
Other possible matchups:
Hans Kung versus Cardinal Burke
Joan Chittister versus Alice von Hildebrand
Richard McBrien versus Fr. Z.