Catholic Vs Catholic Debate And The Art Of Phorum Maintenance

[Cam42]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309017353' post='2258611']
And I'm sure that's one of the reasons why debates get so heated. It is easy to see a slur where none was intended, simply because of the lack of body language, facial expression, tone, pitch, etc etc etc....
[/quote]

I guess getting blasted is going to be my penance. That's fine. I'll take it if that is what it takes to get back in the good graces of Phatmass...

I won't apologize for being Catholic though.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309017814' post='2258613']
I guess getting blasted is going to be my penance. That's fine. I'll take it if that is what it takes to get back in the good graces of Phatmass...

I won't apologize for being Catholic though.
[/quote]


Whoa, whoa, whoa... 'penance'? I was assuming that you didn't intend to commit the sin of a lack of charity, but that you were misunderstood because of the limitations of online posting. So now are you seeing a slur where none was intended?

And who would want anyone to apologize for being Catholic? I, for one, am more grateful than words can tell for being given the gift of faith in the Church that has the fullness of Truth.

Perhaps you might temper the way you write things sometimes - not because your intentions were bad - but because you have become aware that you are sometimes misunderstood? Learning is part of life, and we can always learn to do things a littl better perhaps, or even just a little differently, in order to help others avoid the occasion of sin.... ??

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309016962' post='2258608']
Please don't project. I never said anyone was stupid. I didn't even imply it. I am sure that you're smarter than me. I'm not very smart at all...I have to use documentation and must have support for my position in almost all of my conversation, because things are often said much better than I could ever imagine saying them.

I don't doubt that you can keep up with any discussion that comes up, but can you comment on it from a Catholic point of view? And that is just what we're talking about a Catholic v. Catholic conversation/debate. It is nice for Catholics to have a place to hash out things with other Catholics. Not all things discriminatory are bad, you know. I am sure you can appreciate that.

To assume that because a non Catholic is not involved that there would be immediate injustice toward non-Catholics is a little conspiratorial, don't you think? That is a traditional Protestant view, in my opinion...along the lines of "what are those Catholics doing over there?" That certainly isn't a Christian attitude to have.

But you are spot on about one thing....Faith. This is matter of faith. You don't share in the same faith. You're not Catholic. You may share in a part of it, but you don't share in it fully, so while it is wonderful that you take and interest in Catholic things, there is more going on than simply an intellectual discussion. If you are entering the discussion with the idea that you might be willing or wanting to convert, and by doing so, you would be learning about the faith in order that you might be swayed to join the Church, then I think it could be a different matter all together...but I just don't see that from you...at least not right now...
[/quote]

I doubt I would ever post in any of the discussions. If my status in the forum was "read only," I would be fine with that.

As for conversion at some point, that is a personal matter, but that door is definitely not closed.

[Cam42]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309018147' post='2258616']
Whoa, whoa, whoa... 'penance'? I was assuming that you didn't intend to commit the sin of a lack of charity, but that you were misunderstood because of the limitations of online posting. So now are you seeing a slur where none was intended?

And who would want anyone to apologize for being Catholic? I, for one, am more grateful than words can tell for being given the gift of faith in the Church that has the fullness of Truth.

Perhaps you might temper the way you write things sometimes - not because your intentions were bad - but because you have become aware that you are sometimes misunderstood? Learning is part of life, and we can always learn to do things a littl better perhaps, or even just a little differently, in order to help others avoid the occasion of sin.... ??
[/quote]

No. I assumed no slur in your statement, but what you said was pretty heavy handed and so I took it as fraternal correction upon how I am viewed here right now and what I must do to change that view...

Perhaps I might, but my point gets across...and if it is sometimes, wouldn't it be best if I chose when to temper my writing? If I want to be funny, I try to be, but it is taken as sacrastic or sardonic. When I try to be serious, it is taken as being ill-tempered. I am very aware of my writing style. I have made mention of it before. But it is a little hard not to take offense when one assumes that my statements are one of two things:

1. A slur against Catholicism
2. A slur against non-Catholicism

What did I say in those posts which would make you think that of me? I said nothing of the sort.

Yes, learning is part of life, that is why I said I would accept my penance. And part of this new board is so that there will be less of this going on here...

But, if you look back on this thread, I've said nothing at odds with Catholicism or accepted Catholic opinion, but I've been blasted for making the statements that I have three times now....so, I have accepted the fact I will be getting blasted and I will take that as my penance.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309018768' post='2258622']
No. I assumed no slur in your statement, but what you said was pretty heavy handed and so I took it as fraternal correction upon how I am viewed here right now and what I must do to change that view...

Perhaps I might, but my point gets across...and if it is sometimes, wouldn't it be best if I chose when to temper my writing? If I want to be funny, I try to be, but it is taken as sacrastic or sardonic. When I try to be serious, it is taken as being ill-tempered. I am very aware of my writing style. I have made mention of it before. But it is a little hard not to take offense when one assumes that my statements are one of two things:

1. A slur against Catholicism
2. A slur against non-Catholicism

What did I say in those posts which would make you think that of me? I said nothing of the sort.

Yes, learning is part of life, that is why I said I would accept my penance. And part of this new board is so that there will be less of this going on here...

But, if you look back on this thread, I've said nothing at odds with Catholicism or accepted Catholic opinion, but I've been blasted for making the statements that I have three times now....so, I have accepted the fact I will be getting blasted and I will take that as my penance.
[/quote]


I am sure that you are aware that there are ways of saying things, and then there are ways of saying things. Doesn't St Paul tell us that we can have all knowledge but if we lack love then...? A person may be feeling that love but it doesn't always come across the way they intended... this is why I mentioned that what appeared to be a slur (to both Iggy and me) was probably not intended to be such. I gave the benefit of the doubt... and I think that is what we all need to do for each other, especially online.

If I sounded heavy-handed, then this is one more sign of just how difficult it is to express oneself online in a way that the poster actually intends!

As for fraternal correction... perhaps yes, I can see that this is a good estimation of what I was trying to say. But I dispute that I was 'blasting' you. If this is how you took it, then I have something to learn about my communications with you. And I am more than prepared to learn this.

Back to penance, since you assure me that you did not intend to slur anyone, I do not see how penance applies. It was obviously a misunderstanding - your intention was good and you were unaware that others would react as they did. Learning is not a penance - it is growth.

I do not think that I said any of your statements were factually incorrect as far as Catholic teaching goes... I was commenting on the 'way' you expressed yourself.

As you can see, we are going around in circles, and unable (apparently) to understand what each other are saying. I am quite happy at this point to let the matter drop and to assume that neither of us has any intention to slur or blast each other other (or anyone else) and to continue on with the actual point of the thread, which is whether or not to have a separate phorum for Catholic debates.... which seems to be one area of agreement between the two of us!

[dells_of_bittersweet]

After reading through all the comment threads, here's what I think:

1. I think there are two types of Catholic v. Catholic debates: arguments about facts, and arguments about opinion. A hypothetical debate over the facts would be an argument as to whether gay marriage is allowed under church doctrine. A hypothetical argument over opinion would be communion in the hand vs. on the tongue. In terms of arguments about the facts, I think we need to show a united front in favor of what the church really teaches. I think Catholic v. Catholic arguments involving dogma or doctrine should be actively deleted, and possibly replaced with a moderator posting the definitive Church teaching. On the other hand, in terms of opinion debates, I think they should be allowed in full sight as long as they stay civil. At the risk of sounding like a liberal (I'm not one!), I agree with a previous poster who appreciated seeing the room for opinion in the Catholic Church. Where opinion is allowed, I think it's important for us to show that. Possibly consider more aggressive moderating of these discussion in order to maintain civility.

2. The Catholic Church is not an exclusive club, and it's important that we don't give that impression. Creating some kind of board with exclusive viewing looks really bad in my opinion. I think non-Catholics would wonder what we are trying to hide. I also think this leads to giving a very selective view of Catholicism, which should be avoided.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1309020405' post='2258629']
After reading through all the comment threads, here's what I think:

1. I think there are two types of Catholic v. Catholic debates: arguments about facts, and arguments about opinion. A hypothetical debate over the facts would be an argument as to whether gay marriage is allowed under church doctrine. A hypothetical argument over opinion would be communion in the hand vs. on the tongue. In terms of arguments about the facts, I think we need to show a united front in favor of what the church really teaches. I think Catholic v. Catholic arguments involving dogma or doctrine should be actively deleted, and possibly replaced with a moderator posting the definitive Church teaching. On the other hand, in terms of opinion debates, I think they should be allowed in full sight as long as they stay civil. At the risk of sounding like a liberal (I'm not one!), I agree with a previous poster who appreciated seeing the room for opinion in the Catholic Church. Where opinion is allowed, I think it's important for us to show that. Possibly consider more aggressive moderating of these discussion in order to maintain civility.

2. The Catholic Church is not an exclusive club, and it's important that we don't give that impression. Creating some kind of board with exclusive viewing looks really bad in my opinion. I think non-Catholics would wonder what we are trying to hide. I also think this leads to giving a very selective view of Catholicism, which should be avoided.
[/quote]

I don't know what's involved with being a Mod so I don't know how much time they need for it, so although the idea of more aggressively moderating sounds good in theory, I'm not sure how they would feel about that. I also think they're doing a pretty good job so far, it's just that sometimes people get a little heated and become too personal in their discussions, and maybe that's why the idea of the separate phorum came about.

I can see that the idea of a 'hidden' phorum will upset some people though, so it isn't an easy call for dUSt to make.

[Nihil Obstat]

There already is a hidden forum... just FYI.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1309021398' post='2258632']
There already is a hidden forum... just FYI.
[/quote]



That raises a good point - instead of just locking the new phorum, like the alcohol one and the child one, make it completely hidden so that only those who have access can even see it! Then no one will feel left out!



and PS - I just thought of what my brother calls himself. He married a Catholic, raised their kids in the faith, and attends Mass with her whenever she wants... especially at Christmas, Easter etc. He says he is an honorary Catholic! So we have a few of those on board here too!

Edited June 25, 2011 by nunsense

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309021682' post='2258634']
That raises a good point - instead of just locking the new phorum, like the alcohol one and the child one, make it completely hidden so that only those who have access can even see it! Then no one will feel left out!
[/quote]
No, that's what I meant. There already is one. We don't feel left out because we can't see it.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1309021738' post='2258635']
No, that's what I meant. There already is one. We don't feel left out because we can't see it.
[/quote]


Well now I feel extremely left out and want to be made an honorary member of whatever group has access to it!

But now you've let the cat out of the bag.... we can't do that, everyone will know! lol

[Cam42]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309021682' post='2258634']
That raises a good point - instead of just locking the new phorum, like the alcohol one and the child one, make it completely hidden so that only those who have access can even see it! Then no one will feel left out!

[/quote]

That's what we've been talking about. The board would only be viewable by CM and above...



[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1308937853' post='2258140']

[...]

I create a board specifically for Catholic vs Catholic debate. This board would have the following restrictions: Non-viewable by the public. Only viewable by Church Militant and above (so non-Catholics and new members would not even see it)

If option number two is the consensus, [b]ALL[/b] phorum rules would still apply, [b]except[/b] the Catholic vs Catholic rule. Personal attacks, negative criticism, profanity, etc, etc... All of those rules would still be enforced. In other words, this would not be another "Back Alley" where bad threads are moved.

[...]
[/quote]

Edited June 25, 2011 by Cam42

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1309021738' post='2258635']
No, that's what I meant. There already is one. We don't feel left out because we can't see it.
[/quote]

Are you talking about a hidden forum of the type dUSt described yesterday, for Catholic to Catholic debate?

Or, are you talking about a forum for mods? Or a forum for threads that have been deleted? Neither of those two bother me. They need to be hidden for administrative reasons.

I just assumed that dUSt would not set up a hidden forum for Church Militant Catholic vs Catholic discussion until there was time for those who had an opinion to post their thoughts. Since some people are limited in when they can log on, I assumed that discussion was still ongoing and that forum had not been set up. Are you saying THAT hidden forum exists already?

Or is it some type of hidden forum I haven't even thought of?

Edited June 25, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309022059' post='2258636']
Well now I feel extremely left out and want to be made an honorary member of whatever group has access to it!

But now you've let the cat out of the bag.... we can't do that, everyone will know! lol
[/quote]
It's the moderator forum. I only know because I was there for a few weeks last year around this time.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309023009' post='2258640']
That's what we've been talking about. The board would only be viewable by CM and above...







[/quote]


Well, it's funny, but since dUSt referred to the Back Alley, I (obviously mistakenly to judge by your 'doh' emoticon) assumed he meant a similar phorum to that one... where the public could see that there was a board, but they couldn't enter the phorum and see the posts (and obviously couldn't post). Also similar to the alcohol and child phorums except there was no password.

I am now going to assume once again that it was not your intention for the 'doh' sign to indicate that you think I am stupid for coming to the incorrect conclusion here but that you somehow think that this is funny ??? But if this is how your correct everyone, it is no wonder that you have had problems on the phorum before.