AccountDeleted Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Iggy - perhaps there could be exceptions for special people like you, but I thought the whole point of making the board 'hidden' was so that non-Catholics would not be scandalised. The point isn't to stop non-Catholics from posting (I think) and even though that would also be the end result, the phorum would stop non-Catholics from airing their dirty laundy (inability to control their passions) in public! So, either the board is hidden or there doesn't seem much point to making it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309010148' post='2258570'] Iggy - perhaps there could be exceptions for special people like you, but I thought the whole point of making the board 'hidden' was so that non-Catholics would not be scandalised. The point isn't to stop non-Catholics from posting (I think) and even though that would also be the end result, the phorum would stop non-Catholics from airing their dirty laundy (inability to control their passions) in public! So, either the board is hidden or there doesn't seem much point to making it! [/quote] The point is to create a place for Catholic vs. Catholic debate to occur where it would be least likely to cause scandal. There would still be plenty of room for discussion and teaching moments outside of such a board, but the "off-limits" topics would be able to be discussed in a quiet corner without disrupting the rest of the phorum. It's not about [i]non[/i]-Catholic dirty laundry, it's about Catholic dirty laundry. If a non-Catholic wants to come and air theirs we welcome it and discuss our differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) Let's not forget, that scandal (I don't think that's the right word) can and probably does occur...not through fault of the poster, not through fault of the teaching of Holy Mother Church, but because the one reading it is two things: 1. Not properly catechized 2. Not properly disposed to intake that much information So, the conversation can be pretty intense and can be very high level...high enough that it causes confusion over the issue...but when there are people who are properly catechized and disposed, the conversation can move quickly and it can be a mode of learning, teaching and understanding...but there should be some freedom in being able to discuss those things without fear of retribution, precisely because those things need to be discussed. As for the CM tag, etc...remember this isn't an evangelization tool, this is a catechesis tool. And in this instance, it is a particular catechesis, that of the internal forum where Catholics are engaging Catholics. The external forum of catechesis whereby Catholics catechize non-Catholics will still exist. Also the forum whereby evangelization will still take place, where Catholics will evangelize non Christians will still exist. Also, the ecumenical forum will still exist, whereby Catholics will discuss with the Orthodox, but those are all part of the external forum. And that will still make up the bulk of the discussion here... I think that the idea of keeping this forum internal is a good idea...because there will be less need for an "inter-religious" dialogue, where it isn't necessarily needed and Catholics will be able to engage other Catholics without fear of offending a non-Catholic... And if one is worried that the drama will somehow dry up and the popcorn will get too dry from sitting around, because the drama is gone, I doubt it...this is phatmass, this is what we do... My thoughts on the latest concerns... Edited June 25, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1309011270' post='2258575'] The point is to create a place for Catholic vs. Catholic debate to occur where it would be least likely to cause scandal. There would still be plenty of room for discussion and teaching moments outside of such a board, but the "off-limits" topics would be able to be discussed in a quiet corner without disrupting the rest of the phorum. It's not about [i]non[/i]-Catholic dirty laundry, it's about Catholic dirty laundry. If a non-Catholic wants to come and air theirs we welcome it and discuss our differences. [/quote] I think Nunsense caught my point. I personally would NOT be scandalized by seeing Catholic vs Catholic debate. I've seen it all before and I expect it. I'm not sure there are any topics that I HAVEN'T seen discussed at some point. Catholics are people just like everyone else. As a non-Catholic, I don't know how much other non-Catholics are scandalized by Catholic debate. I'm sure others will have different views on this. But to me, one mistaken belief that many non-Catholics have about the Catholic church is that because of its central structure (i.e. the Pope), there is no room for debate and all Catholics are required believe the same thing. I personally have found it comforting to find that there is at least some room for disagreement or debate. Yes, sometimes debaters get emotional or mean. None of us like this when it happens. But, as far as being scandalized, I have been an active member of several Web communities, and one reason I have stayed with Phatmass is that the people here are nicer and more intelligent (and better behaved) than on the typical general interest board. Sure, people here are far from perfect, but on Phatmass the posters are SO much better than other boards. Unfortunately, reality isn't always pretty. But to hide it doesn't make it go away. One possibility could be that the board would only be visible to members over 18 (along with limiting posting to church militants). There could also be a warning that some debates may become emotional. Or, it might only be visible to members with over 500 posts (or something like that). That way, the many members who sign up but don't stay, would never see it. Edited June 25, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308980308' post='2258473'] Agreed! Wait. Are we talking about me again? [/quote] Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309012690' post='2258578'] Let's not forget, that scandal (I don't think that's the right word) can and probably does occur...not through fault of the poster, not through fault of the teaching of Holy Mother Church, but because the one reading it is two things: 1. Not properly catechized 2. Not properly disposed to intake that much information So, the conversation can be pretty intense and can be very high level...high enough that it causes confusion over the issue...but when there are people who are properly catechized and disposed, the conversation can move quickly and it can be a mode of learning, teaching and understanding...but there should be some freedom in being able to discuss those things without fear of retribution, precisely because those things need to be discussed. As for the CM tag, etc...remember this isn't an evangelization tool, this is a catechesis tool. And in this instance, it is a particular catechesis, that of the internal forum where Catholics are engaging Catholics. The external forum of catechesis whereby Catholics catechize non-Catholics will still exist. Also the forum whereby evangelization will still take place, where Catholics will evangelize non Christians will still exist. Also, the ecumenical forum will still exist, whereby Catholics will discuss with the Orthodox, but those are all part of the external forum. And that will still make up the bulk of the discussion here... I think that the idea of keeping this forum internal is a good idea...because there will be less need for an "inter-religious" dialogue, where it isn't necessarily needed and Catholics will be able to engage other Catholics without fear of offending a non-Catholic... And if one is worried that the drama will somehow dry up and the popcorn will get too dry from sitting around, because the drama is gone, I doubt it...this is phatmass, this is what we do... My thoughts on the latest concerns... [/quote] Cam--I may not have been through RCIA, which is probably the only catechesis tool that many "Church militants" have had, but I'm not stupid--in fact, my IQ is certainly as high as yours. "Church militant" only designates belief, not knowledge. I think I can follow any discussion that comes up. If I don't understand, I can ask someone privately. Non-Catholic does not equal stupid.And, why would you say something offensive about non-Catholics? You can disagree without being offensive--anything less is ignorant Also, I thought this forum would be for Catholic versus Catholic debate, not a place to say offensive things about non-Catholics behind their backs. (And, if you did say something offensive about non-Catholics, don't think that we wouldn't be informed about it by some other Church militant.) Edited June 25, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Maybe we should have a tag for those who aren't Catholic, but a member of the phamily, like Iggy or Jesuslol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309013468' post='2258589'] Maybe we should have a tag for those who aren't Catholic, but a member of the phamily, like Iggy or Jesuslol. [/quote] There's an idea. Wonder what we would call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1309013391' post='2258586'] Cam--I may not have been through RCIA, which is probably the only catechesis tool that many "Church militants" have had, but I'm not stupid--in fact, my IQ is certainly as high as yours. "Church militant" only designates belief, not knowledge. I think I can follow any discussion that comes up. If I don't understand, I can ask someone privately. Non-Catholic does not equal stupid.And, why would you say something offensive about non-Catholics? You can disagree without being offensive--anything less is ignorant. [/quote] Iggy, this is just such a good example to me of how easy it is to misunderstand each other online. You see what Cam42 is writing as being a slur on non-Catholics whereas I saw it as a slur on Catholics - those who don't agree with him! Reading his post made me think that anyone who disagrees with him is only doing so because they haven't been properly catechized, rather than because they might just disagree with his interpretation. It makes me laugh because perhaps neither of us are really getting what he is trying to say which could be really quite inoffensive..... I like CatherineM's idea of having special categories for those who are non-Catholic phamily. I'm not sure the number of posts would work because we have some posters here who have been around for a long time, but who aren't really 'Catholic-friendly'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1309014061' post='2258594'] There's an idea. Wonder what we would call it? [/quote] The Pope calls us "people of goodwill." If the initials didn't spell out something scandalous when spoken, I would have said "Friends of Catholicism." Oh well. Something like that. I'm sure my buddy Sister Helen across the street would give me a Hall Pass. Unfortunately, she only has 63 years in religious life. I hope that's enough to vouch for my character. Edited June 25, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [font="Arial"][size="2"]Although I would not be able to participate, I will submit my two cents anyway.[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]For such a forum, I believe a key rule should be that one cannot tell anyone what they should or should not do. Rather explain what you do and why.[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]For example, don't tell someone he should receive the Eucharist on the tongue and not the hand. Rather explain how you receive and why. I believe this would make the forum more productive and less threatening. The less you address your post to an individual, the better.[/size][/font] Edited June 25, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1309013391' post='2258586'] Cam--I may not have been through RCIA, which is probably the only catechesis tool that many "Church militants" have had, but I'm not stupid--in fact, my IQ is certainly as high as yours. "Church militant" only designates belief, not knowledge. I think I can follow any discussion that comes up. If I don't understand, I can ask someone privately. Non-Catholic does not equal stupid.And, why would you say something offensive about non-Catholics? You can disagree without being offensive--anything less is ignorant Also, I thought this forum would be for Catholic versus Catholic debate, not a place to say offensive things about non-Catholics behind their backs. (And, if you did say something offensive about non-Catholics, don't think that we wouldn't be informed about it by some other Church militant.) [/quote] Please don't project. I never said anyone was stupid. I didn't even imply it. I am sure that you're smarter than me. I'm not very smart at all...I have to use documentation and must have support for my position in almost all of my conversation, because things are often said much better than I could ever imagine saying them. I don't doubt that you can keep up with any discussion that comes up, but can you comment on it from a Catholic point of view? And that is just what we're talking about a Catholic v. Catholic conversation/debate. It is nice for Catholics to have a place to hash out things with other Catholics. Not all things discriminatory are bad, you know. I am sure you can appreciate that. To assume that because a non Catholic is not involved that there would be immediate injustice toward non-Catholics is a little conspiratorial, don't you think? That is a traditional Protestant view, in my opinion...along the lines of "what are those Catholics doing over there?" That certainly isn't a Christian attitude to have. But you are spot on about one thing....Faith. This is matter of faith. You don't share in the same faith. You're not Catholic. You may share in a part of it, but you don't share in it fully, so while it is wonderful that you take and interest in Catholic things, there is more going on than simply an intellectual discussion. If you are entering the discussion with the idea that you might be willing or wanting to convert, and by doing so, you would be learning about the faith in order that you might be swayed to join the Church, then I think it could be a different matter all together...but I just don't see that from you...at least not right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309014091' post='2258595'] Iggy, this is just such a good example to me of how easy it is to misunderstand each other online. You see what Cam42 is writing as being a slur on non-Catholics whereas I saw it as a slur on Catholics - those who don't agree with him! [/quote] And it was not a slur at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1309014355' post='2258598'] The Pope calls us "people of goodwill." If the initials didn't spell out something scandalous when spoken, I would have said "Friends of Catholicism." Oh well. Something like that. I'm sure my buddy Sister Helen across the street would give me a Hall Pass. Unfortunately, she only has 63 years in religious life. I hope that's enough to vouch for my character. [/quote] Iggy your character is rock solid. You need no references in my book. I agree that there are some non-Catholics that could be welcome on the Catholic v Catholic board and not be scandalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309017081' post='2258609'] And it was not a slur at all... [/quote] And I'm sure that's one of the reasons why debates get so heated. It is easy to see a slur where none was intended, simply because of the lack of body language, facial expression, tone, pitch, etc etc etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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