Catholic Vs Catholic Debate And The Art Of Phorum Maintenance

[dUSt]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' timestamp='1308949000' post='2258242']
I'm voting for number 2. I came to Phatmass when I was considering becoming a Catholic, and while Phatmass played a huge role in my conversion, Catholic vs. Catholic debate can be confusing and off-putting for someone seeking orthodox information. Especially when that someone is going through RCIA at a somewhat unorthodox parish.

However, I do believe that having a space for such debate is good. Good debate requires critical thought. As Catholics we should think and speak about our faith in a way that encourages a deepening and maturation of belief. Clearly articulating and defending one's beliefs is a great to way to accomplish that. Phatmass is also one of the few places where some people can come and have a purely Catholic debate. Most of my friends are evangelical Protestants and I love them, but I spend a lot of time either defending Catholicism or trying to keep the dirty laundry in a basket. Even though I don't participate in debate threads or post a lot, I like knowing that I can usually come here and find threads that may address some of the conflicts I experience as a Catholic, both internal conflicts and those with my brothers and sisters.

I also just want to reiterate that the Phatmass community played a major role in my conversion and I think it is important that we maintain an atmosphere that remains non-Catholic, convert, revert friendly.
[/quote]

[CatherineM]

I don't like the Cath on Cath debate because I never see it going anywhere. I hate getting involved in it. It causes hard feelings, and I think it gives enemies of the Church ammunition.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308940356' post='2258155']
My main concern is these debates may be more heated (which may or may not be a bad thing), and the heated feelings or possible 'grudges' (for lack of a better word) may play out in other, more public areas of the board.
[/quote]
Because no cliquey behaviour ever occurs on this website already.

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308951936' post='2258270']
I don't like the Cath on Cath debate because I never see it going anywhere. I hate getting involved in it. It causes hard feelings, and I think it gives enemies of the Church ammunition.
[/quote]

The main reason that it causes hard feelings is because inevitably, one of the party's involved commits a fallacy and applies a universal to a particular. That can't be done. For example, if I am talking about Sacred Music as a whole and all of a sudden a responsory post to me shifts from the Church as a whole to "this is how I do it in my parish and dam.n you for telling me I'm wrong...." The point has been lost. Rarely will I speak to the particular and if I do, I clarify first, normally....but that doesn't change the feelings....[b]THAT[/b] above all else is what the MODs should be looking for and stopping...because that is what causes the problem...not the talk in the universal, normally...

Catholic v. Catholic debate is healthy if done right. It can really be a good teaching tool for both sides, but both sides have to stay universal about it....if a particular is brought up, then the one who brings it up cannot get angry or upset or offended if the application doesn't fit...because it is at that point that the particular becomes a teaching moment to take back to the parish and influence TPTB in order to affect a change toward the hermeneutic of continuity.

That is the bottom line about Catholic v. Catholic...as I see it.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308952552' post='2258281']
The main reason that it causes hard feelings is because inevitably, one of the party's involved commits a fallacy and applies a universal to a particular. That can't be done. For example, if I am talking about Sacred Music as a whole and all of a sudden a responsory post to me shifts from the Church as a whole to "this is how I do it in my parish and dam.n you for telling me I'm wrong...." The point has been lost. Rarely will I speak to the particular and if I do, I clarify first, normally....but that doesn't change the feelings....[b]THAT[/b] above all else is what the MODs should be looking for and stopping...because that is what causes the problem...not the talk in the universal, normally...

Catholic v. Catholic debate is healthy if done right. It can really be a good teaching tool for both sides, but both sides have to stay universal about it....if a particular is brought up, then the one who brings it up cannot get angry or upset or offended if the application doesn't fit...because it is at that point that the particular becomes a teaching moment to take back to the parish and influence TPTB in order to affect a change toward the hermeneutic of continuity.

That is the bottom line about Catholic v. Catholic...as I see it.
[/quote]
And this is the problem I see with Catholic v. Catholic debate. If I don't see things the way you do, I am wrong, and therefore not entitled to my opinion. If I don't like chant, or Latin liturgy, or kneeling to receive communion, then I have committed a fallacy. I'm going to dinner with my husband now, and I will certainly be eating babies. That is what you think I do, right?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308952183' post='2258275']
Because no cliquey behaviour ever occurs on this website already.
[/quote]

Your avatar reminds me of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' timestamp='1308949000' post='2258242']
I'm voting for number 2. I came to Phatmass when I was considering becoming a Catholic, and while Phatmass played a huge role in my conversion, Catholic vs. Catholic debate can be confusing and off-putting for someone seeking orthodox information. Especially when that someone is going through RCIA at a somewhat unorthodox parish.

However, I do believe that having a space for such debate is good. Good debate requires critical thought. As Catholics we should think and speak about our faith in a way that encourages a deepening and maturation of belief. Clearly articulating and defending one's beliefs is a great to way to accomplish that. Phatmass is also one of the few places where some people can come and have a purely Catholic debate. Most of my friends are evangelical Protestants and I love them, but I spend a lot of time either defending Catholicism or trying to keep the dirty laundry in a basket. Even though I don't participate in debate threads or post a lot, I like knowing that I can usually come here and find threads that may address some of the conflicts I experience as a Catholic, both internal conflicts and those with my brothers and sisters.

I also just want to reiterate that the Phatmass community played a major role in my conversion and I think it is important that we maintain an atmosphere that remains non-Catholic, convert, revert friendly.
[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308953851' post='2258292']
And this is the problem I see with Catholic v. Catholic debate. If I don't see things the way you do, I am wrong, and therefore not entitled to my opinion. If I don't like chant, or Latin liturgy, or kneeling to receive communion, then I have committed a fallacy. I'm going to dinner with my husband now, and I will certainly be eating babies. That is what you think I do, right?
[/quote]

Whaaa....? IDIG....

No, it's not about seeing things any certain way except the way the Church sees it. If the Church gives a clear teaching or instruction or even opinion on the issue, then it should be followed, unless it clear that the parameters are not consistent with the Authentic Magisterium (ie. the hermeneutic of rupture).

The fallacy comes when one tries to justify his actions, which may or may not be in line with the Authentic Magisterium. If they are, then there is no issue. If they are is not, that is when the problems start. By defining our parameters first, it would certainly help....that is why often times you'll see me start with a clear teaching from the Church then move from there.

As for eating babies, I hope not....cannibalism is a sin. I don't think you eat babies....I think you might eat baby cows or baby sheep, but certainly not baby people....(those are two of my favorite meals, btw....)

[Nihil Obstat]

I agree with Cam.

[krissylou]

I don't get a vote ...

But it seems odd and disturbing to me that disagreements are considered to "pose risk of scandal" and "confusion" and must be kept behind closed doors only for those mature in the faith.

Newbies are being attracted to and welcomed into a Universal Church. It's not a monolith. It's not SUPPOSED to be a monolith. This can be a great strength and a great weakness. To maintain an image of uniformity until you're considered "old enough to handle it" or whatever -- to me this seems a great mistake.

But hey, it's your site. Do whatcha like. I'm just here for the coffee, and to hang out and cheer on Vocation Station types.

Oh and to tease DS. We mustn't forget that.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1308958388' post='2258317']I don't get a vote ...

But it seems odd and disturbing to me that disagreements are considered to "pose risk of scandal" and "confusion" and must be kept behind closed doors only for those mature in the faith.

Newbies are being attracted to and welcomed into a Universal Church. [b]It's not a monolith. It's not SUPPOSED to be a monolith. This can be a great strength and a great weakness. To maintain an image of uniformity until you're considered "old enough to handle it" or whatever -- to me this seems a great mistake.[/b]

But hey, it's your site. Do whatcha like. I'm just here for the coffee, and to hang out and cheer on Vocation Station types.

Oh and to tease DS. We mustn't forget that.[/quote]I agree. However... the problem is that some Catholics do not agree, they do think Catholicism (true catholicsm) is monolithic and should be a uniform cohesive mass.

Also this isn't the purpose of the guideline, its to prevent discussions from taking a turn for the worst... I think having a phourm for this would be appropriate. But the name of the phourm I think is important as to engender the proper decorum and attitude. I miss the "lame phourm" and "ecumenical duologue phourm"... "phamily matters" was my vote, as to me it engenders the importance of the phamily here on phatmass...

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308956892' post='2258309']
I agree with Cam.
[/quote]
I realize that. You guys are both much better Catholics than I am. You are more devout, more reverent, and more observant. I'm just a back row pew warmer content with kumbya music and priests who would have flunked out of seminary but for the priest shortage.

That is what all the Catholic on Catholic debate is about around here, isn't it? About who are the best Catholics. Who have memorized the most ancient church documents. I can't compete. I don't have Pope Benedict on speed dial. I bow to your amesomeness.

Sorry if I seem cranky. I've spent the whole day having people fawn over me, and I truly hate it. I think the special forum is a great idea because I will be able to steer clear of it. It will allow me to avoid feeling like everyone thinks I'm a bad Catholic because I can't kneel.

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308961024' post='2258330']
I realize that. You guys are both much better Catholics than I am. You are more devout, more reverent, and more observant. I'm just a back row pew warmer content with kumbya music and priests who would have flunked out of seminary but for the priest shortage.

That is what all the Catholic on Catholic debate is about around here, isn't it? About who are the best Catholics. Who have memorized the most ancient church documents. I can't compete. I don't have Pope Benedict on speed dial. I bow to your amesomeness.

Sorry if I seem cranky. I've spent the whole day having people fawn over me, and I truly hate it. I think the special forum is a great idea because I will be able to steer clear of it. It will allow me to avoid feeling like everyone thinks I'm a bad Catholic because I can't kneel.
[/quote]


Actually, I was thrown out of seminary for being the way that I am. So, let's not talk about the priest shortage...it's a sore spot...if you want cranky, I can give you cranky.

And no, I've never once, not ever, ever, never, ever, said that I am better or than anyone else was worse than me. I haven't memorized the documents, I have them all saved in my favorites because I use them alot. I don't want you to compete, I want you to understand, learn and teach...you're a Church Scholar here, you should be doing all of those things....

I don't have Papa Ratzinger on speed dial, but I've met him more than once, before he became the Supreme Pontiff....a couple of times happened early in the morning in St. Peter's Square. It was pretty cool, not gonna lie....and he was absolutely approachable. I am no more amesome than anyone else, except that I am a gigantic "Music of jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)" fan...that does make me amesome.

And as far as the kneeling thing goes....if you can't, you can't....nobody with admonish you for that...if you could and chose not to because of an obstinant opposition, then I would blast you pretty hard...because that would be causing scandal. But since you don't, and you can't, I would never say a word to you...

So, if you want some sympathy, I don't think I can give it, because I don't really know why you're needing it...if you get upset because people care enough to wait on you, then I will certainly not do that, so you can get to feeling better sooner...

[Winchester]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1308954008' post='2258293']
Your avatar reminds me of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.
[/quote]
Your avatar reminds me of a dude looking at something.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308961024' post='2258330']
I realize that. You guys are both much better Catholics than I am. You are more devout, more reverent, and more observant. I'm just a back row pew warmer content with kumbya music and priests who would have flunked out of seminary but for the priest shortage.

That is what all the Catholic on Catholic debate is about around here, isn't it? About who are the best Catholics. Who have memorized the most ancient church documents. I can't compete. I don't have Pope Benedict on speed dial. I bow to your amesomeness.

Sorry if I seem cranky. I've spent the whole day having people fawn over me, and I truly hate it. I think the special forum is a great idea because I will be able to steer clear of it. It will allow me to avoid feeling like everyone thinks I'm a bad Catholic because I can't kneel.
[/quote]
Come on. Did I say any of that?