ThePenciledOne Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308987998' post='2258519'] READ PEOPLE This thread has NOTHING to do with Mass. Its just about P&W music as it stands alone. Enough about Mass! [/quote] This. [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308999849' post='2258539'] You're right. But the Mass is not a free action. It is a very caculated and a very specific action. It is not open to free interpretation and innovation. That is what caused the hermeneutic of rupture... [/quote] I never mentioned anything toward Mass, because that is not what this thread is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309031144' post='2258681'] This. I never mentioned anything toward Mass, because that is not what this thread is about. [/quote] OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephaDrigan Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309030662' post='2258676'] Will the Blessed Sacrament be present? If not, then I don't see a problem with it. As long as you have permission from the local Ordinary to use the church for such an undertaking... [/quote] It was in the Tabernacle, if that's what you're asking. [quote] Just call me Cam....thanks. [/quote] What's wrong with long titles, Mr. Lord and Master of Orthodoxy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='CephaDrigan' timestamp='1309053253' post='2258795'] What's wrong with long titles, Mr. Lord and Master of Orthodoxy? [/quote] Makes him sound pretentious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dells_of_bittersweet Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309030662' post='2258676'] Will the Blessed Sacrament be present? If not, then I don't see a problem with it. As long as you have permission from the local Ordinary to use the church for such an undertaking... If it is, I would think that what you were doing would be akin to a concert, which would require permission from the local Ordinary and the Blessed Sacrament should be removed, so as not to subject Our Lord to any possible profane activity. Then I would say sure. Just call me Cam....thanks. [/quote] By local Ordinary, do you mean the Bishop? And do we need specific permission each time we do it (we do it all the time), or do we just need standing permission? Also, does our group in particular need permission, or does permission only need to be granted for any group who wants to use our Church? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1309055938' post='2258808'] By local Ordinary, do you mean the Bishop? And do we need specific permission each time we do it (we do it all the time), or do we just need standing permission? Also, does our group in particular need permission, or does permission only need to be granted for any group who wants to use our Church? Thanks! [/quote] Yes, the local Ordinary is the Bishop. Yes, you need his permission each time. If he gives standing permission, that would be his perogative, I assume. Any group would need permission, as the worship space is consecrated (or should be) for the sacred Mysteries....not for concert use, unless the Blessed Sacrament is removed and the need is genuine. In other words, if there is no need for the use of the church, because of another meeting place, then the church should be avoided. As an aside, to capitalize Church is to speak of Holy Mother Church. To leave church in lowercase is to speak of a particular building.... For example...the Church in Des Moines is comprised of many parish churches...and the Church in Des Moines is part of the larger universal Church, which we commonly call the Catholic or Roman Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308999471' post='2258538'] If we do what we want and what we want is not what the Church wants, are we being faithful to the Church? Are we serving God or are we serving man at that point? Since when is the Mass about us? Since when is the Mass about making sure that we are happy? Since when is the Mass about a communal experience which simply caters the wants of the congregation? These ideas are not Catholic. These ideas undermine the importance and the purpose of the Mass. Even before Vatican Council II there were abuses. The world isn't perfect, but also I'd be willing to bet that in 99% of parishes they weren't singing High Masses either. Most Masses were low Masses and there were provisions for singing hymns as long as they fit a certain criteria. But then again, this movement was spear headed by Bugnini, pushed through the Congregation for Rites and eventually signed off on by an ailing Pope (mere months before his death). The liturgical movements which misinterpreted Vatican Council II were afoot already. As it is, even then the criteria for use of hymns was specific and it was defined.... You're right, chanting is beautiful and chanting isn't the only way to praise God, but it is the only way to praise God at Holy Mass. And since when has a song by John Lennon EVER been considered Theologically correct? Imagine there's no heaven, wonder you can No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions It`s easy if you try No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one That is so riddled with Theological error, I don't even know where to start.... [/quote] I NEVER said it was done by John Lennon, if you had actually read my post you would see it was done by Mercy Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309005236' post='2258554'] Gee, she didn't clarify now did she...so when one thinks of Imagine, it is NOT big stretch to assume that it is Lennon's song, now is it....plus with the tambor of music in today's churches, would it surprise you? [/quote] Seriously, I am Church Militant for a reason, do ya think I would sing John Lennon in church????? I have been singing in church since beforn you were born, and John Lennon didn't make the list. That was insulting and you should know better than that. Do not pass go and get to confession. Now Elvis Presly on the other hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309009199' post='2258563'] Ok, I apologize for the Lennon comment. I was scanning the topic at 6am. That is my fault, I'm not perfect. The Song's name is I Can Only Imagine. It is not Imagine. So, perhaps you can understand the confusion on my part. Regardless, that is not appropriate for the Mass, even for a meditation....funerals are not a mouthpiece for pop music to make a grieving family feel better. There is a time and place for that, like say at a visitation or a wake... It is precisely this confusion and horizontal theology which led us to this state of rupture that the Church faces now. Because her leadership did not do her service. Because her leadership doesn't speak out and support what should be. Dies Irae that is what is appropriate for a funeral...but alas that was removed in 1969....so that we can get songs like I Can Only Imagine... Proper theology. What is more proper, the Dies Irae or I Can Only Imagine? It is clear, but because the family requested it we have to sing it....otherwise what? The funeral Mass is not about the grieving family, it is about the sacrifice of the Mass and the commendation of the dead into paradise. We find comfort in that, not in the incomplete and often times incorrect horizontal theology which has infested and invaded the minds of the leadership of the Church. I'm not demonizing Cmom. She just did what she was told. I suppose she could have said no, but ultimately the culpability of that falls on the priest who allowed it to happen at a Mass he was celebrating... So, I apologize for getting the song wrong. That was my fault. [/quote] Oh yeah the lyrics are just terrible and inappropriate for a funeral. N O T! I can only imagine what it will be like, when I walk by Your side... I can only imagine, what my eyes will see, when Your Face is before me! I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel? Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still? Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall? Will I sing 'Hallelujah!'? Will I be able to speak at all? I can only imagine! I can only imagine! I can only imagine, when that day comes, when I find myself standing in the Son! I can only imagine, when all I will do, is forever, forever worship You! I can only imagine! I can only imagine! [ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/m/mercyme/i_can_only_imagine.html ] It was done on an organ, it was hauntungly beautiful, solumn and prayerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1309025529' post='2258654'] Mr. Lord and Master of Orthodoxy: I'm not sure you understood my question. I was asking about doing P&W during youthgroup, in the church, not during Mass. Is that allowed? [/quote] You have meetings inside the church?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 The great thing about being Catholic is that we know that there are different times for different things… we can rock different styles at different times… for example, a Catholic at the Holy Sacrifice will behave differently at a business meeting, a baseball game, a social gathering with just family, another one with friends and strangers, hanging out and drinking beer, listening to hip-hop, listening to classical symphonies, etc.… we are universal after all. This is the way of sanctification and being an optimal human being. I mean, just because we appreciate orthodoxy and reverence at Mass doesn't mean that we can't pray spontaneously or have praise and worship or pray the rosary or meditate on the Gospel at OTHER times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309100602' post='2258864'] Oh yeah the lyrics are just terrible and inappropriate for a funeral. N O T! I can only imagine what it will be like, when I walk by Your side... I can only imagine, what my eyes will see, when Your Face is before me! I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel? Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still? Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall? Will I sing 'Hallelujah!'? Will I be able to speak at all? I can only imagine! I can only imagine! I can only imagine, when that day comes, when I find myself standing in the Son! I can only imagine, when all I will do, is forever, forever worship You! I can only imagine! I can only imagine! [ Lyrics from: [url="http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/m/mercyme/i_can_only_imagine.html"]http://www.lyricsmod...ly_imagine.html[/url] ] It was done on an organ, it was hauntungly beautiful, solumn and prayerful. [/quote] I like the song and think that perhaps after the Mass is complete, that song would be very apropos at a funeral… I might be going out on a limb here by saying that it could be okay as the processional song at the end of the Mass--- but I'd rather they sang The Strife is O'er, the Battle Done at my funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309005614' post='2258555'] Since when is it absolutely necessary that the faithful sing? As for the 1200 not knowing chant, they should. If they don't, that falls on church leaders and it should be fixed, no? So, when the music directors have 1200 youth at an event, it would be a wonderful time to TEACH them chant. Chanting is so much easier than trying to learn some pop inspired ditty by Ken Canedo or Bob Hurd or David Haas...but that isn't fun...and the Mass is supposed to be fun, right? Because fun is the only way to engage the youth....whatever... [/quote] I shall forgive you since you are not a youth minister...your penance is to chaperone a Confirmation retreat with no less than 100 candidates... Time, place, purpose. In the real world, many many youth are unchurched. It is harder than pulling teeth to get parents to bring them to youth events sometimes. Even harder for them to bring the kiddos' baptismal certs when they are needed. Getting parents to bring them to church to teach chant? riiight. Youth events have a theme and a purpose, following the eight components of youth ministry laid out by the USCCB in Renewing the Vision: A framework for Youth Ministry: The Ministry of Advocacy The Ministry of Catechesis The Ministry of Community Life The Ministry of Evangelization The Ministry of Justice and Service The Ministry of Leadership Development The Ministry of Pastoral Care The Ministry of Prayer and Worship Stopping the planned activities to spend 3 days learning chant would have the net effect of making sure very few attended the following year. We would have 1000 kids who can chant but miss further spiritual development because we pulled a switcheroo. Rule#1 of youth ministry: don't lie to the kids and don't BS them because they can see right through it. If you tell them they are coming for a weekend of the above 8 and turn it into a Gregorian bootcamp...ya done lost most of 'em. If you want to teach chant, have sessions, activities, workshops to teach chant. Yes it can be done and I would love to see it. I for one am tone deaf and would not be a good fit for that. My kids would all sound like quasimodo P&W music has its place and one of those is at youth events. Youth Masses? Not so much. BTW since we are talking about music...anything by Haugen or Haas is drivel and worthy only of lining birdcages..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1309112062' post='2258879'] anything by Haugen or Haas is drivel and worthy only of lining birdcages..... [/quote] [size="7"]AMEN, BROTHER[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I'm seriously tempted to close this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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