Latin Quietism

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1308881911' post='2257929']
Okay then this is something that is to be avoided at all costs. It is a danger to souls.
From what I read when I googled, they mentioned St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross in
the same article. This is sort of offensive then. I don't think of these saints as promoting an
erroneous doctrine.

Thank You for the explanation.
[/quote]
I'm sure there are good elements to be found, but taken to erroneous conclusions. It would be, as I understand it, based on contemplative prayer, but taken to rather extreme conclusions in a heretical direction.
Those saints of course promoted contemplative prayer, and within a Christian context. Quietism loses that Christian context as it moves into the territory of heresy.

[Nihil Obstat]

If I understand correctly, it also seems to support a sort of dualistic hatred of the body and the material world, which of course is rather Gnostic and has no place in legitimate Christianity.

[AccountDeleted]

Both St Teresa and St John of the Cross had to deal with questions about this because they advocated Contemplation, which is not the same thing at all but brought them under suspicion because of the seeming similarities.

Most Eastern meditations tend towards a Quietist attitude, which is to 'quiet the mind' through meditation - but this is not the same as true Christian meditation, which involves using the mind to think about God and various aspects of Him and the Incarnation (and other Christian topics). In many Eastern meditations, the breath is associated with a mantra (a word or phrase repeated over and over) in an effort to silence all thought and enter into a state of 'samadhi' or 'nirvana' which basically means union with the divine - but not a personal union such as Christians experience in contemplation, but as has been stated above, a sort of 'personal annihilation' of the ego state and perhaps an experience of 'bliss'. Although many Christians also use forms of breath meditation and repetitious phrases such as the Jesus Prayer, the focus for these should be on the Presence of God and not the Absence of Self! Perhaps that is why Centring Prayer is so controversial (let's not go there).

On the other hand, it is important not to confuse Quietism with Contemplation , which can lead to a transforming union with God, thus seeming to be self-annihilating. But this experience is a complete gift from God and does not annihilate the individual soul, but transform it through His love and make one even more aware of His beauty. The deepest experiences of Christian contemplation also make one even more aware of themself as a individual who has been created to adore and worship God.

Jesus came to establish a very personal relationship between us and God - not to teach us to annihilate our own identities. Quietism is dangerous because it can start out with something as simple as wanting to do the will of God, which is an admirable desire, but end up completely paralysing a person who might decide never to do anything on their own but to 'wait' on God for all things - basically demanding that God perform for us through signs and other means.

As for contemplation, St John talks about this union in the Living Flame of Love and in the last stanza you can see that he talks about the 'Beloved' and he obviously continues to exist as an individual because he describes the experience as happening in 'his' heart. As someone who did Eastern meditation for many years before becoming a Christian, I can honestly say that there is simply no comparison. What I learned was how to sit still and how to quieten my mind. I even had deep experiences of what I considered to be the Divine, and my understanding was that 'God is unbearable compassion'. But when Jesus came into my life and made His Presence known to me, I saw the difference between a candle and the sun. And even that doesn't fully describe it because the sun is also a part of creation, whereas God is the creator. Without Jesus, meditation is a road to nowhere.



[b][u]The Living Flame of Love (St John of the Cross)

[/u]1. O living flame of love[/b]
[b]that tenderly wounds my soul [/b]
[b]in its deepest center! Since [/b]
[b]now you are not oppressive, [/b]
[b]now consummate! if it be your will: [/b]
[b]tear through the veil of this sweet encounter! [/b]

[b]2. O sweet cautery, [/b]
[b]O delightful wound! [/b]
[b]O gentle hand! O delicate touch [/b]
[b]that tastes of eternal life [/b]
[b]and pays every debt! [/b]
[b]In killing you changed death to life. [/b]

[b]3. O lamps of fire! [/b]
[b]in whose splendors [/b]
[b]the deep caverns of feeling, [/b]
[b]once obscure and blind, [/b]
[b]now give forth, so rarely, so exquisitely, [/b][b]both warmth and light to their Beloved. [/b]

[b]4. How gently and lovingly[/b]
[b]you wake in my heart,[/b]
[b]where in secret you dwell alone;[/b]
[b]and in your sweet breathing,[/b]
[b]filled with good and glory,[/b] [b]how tenderly you swell my heart with love. [/b]

Edited June 24, 2011 by nunsense

[mortify]

Did Thomas Merton confuse Quetism and Contemplation?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1308926648' post='2258080']
Did Thomas Merton confuse Quetism and Contemplation?
[/quote]


With the disclaimer that this is entirely my own personal opinion, I think Thomas Merton was treading a very dangerous path at the time God so mercifully called him home.

Anyone who tries to mix Christianity with Eastern mysticism walks the same dangerous path... in my very humble and completely unauthoritive opinion.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308899494' post='2258005']
If I understand correctly, it also seems to support a sort of dualistic hatred of the body and the material world, which of course is rather Gnostic and has no place in legitimate Christianity.
[/quote]

I agree with you. God doesn't want us to hate ourselves. He wants us to love Him, our neighbor and ourselves in Him.
I have been doing some more reading in the Catholic Encyclopedia. This is very scary doctrine because it contains
within it some elements of truth. Only if you know the truth can you remain free from the errors of this kind of thing.
And even then, we would have to be extremely careful not to fall into these errors or others.

I am thinking of when I said I didn't believe in the infallibility of the Church. I have since changed my mind.
Last week at Mass I told our Lord that I want to believe and accept by faith all the Church teaches without
question. And if the Church should happen to make a mistake, then we will be blessed for our obedience.

This does not mean the temptations against faith have left me. Far from it. But God and the Blessed Mother
will help me to remain on the right track.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1308944915' post='2258185']
I agree with you. God doesn't want us to hate ourselves. He wants us to love Him, our neighbor and ourselves in Him.
I have been doing some more reading in the Catholic Encyclopedia. This is very scary doctrine because it contains
within it some elements of truth. Only if you know the truth can you remain free from the errors of this kind of thing.
And even then, we would have to be extremely careful not to fall into these errors or others.

I am thinking of when I said I didn't believe in the infallibility of the Church. I have since changed my mind.
Last week at Mass I told our Lord that I want to believe and accept by faith all the Church teaches without
question. And if the Church should happen to make a mistake, then we will be blessed for our obedience.

This does not mean the temptations against faith have left me. Far from it. But God and the Blessed Mother
will help me to remain on the right track.
[/quote]
I am extremely happy to hear that.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308957501' post='2258313']
I am extremely happy to hear that.
[/quote]

I have had so much peace since God gave me the gift of faith.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1308908385' post='2258024']
Both St Teresa and St John of the Cross had to deal with questions about this because they advocated Contemplation, which is not the same thing at all but brought them under suspicion because of the seeming similarities.

Most Eastern meditations tend towards a Quietist attitude, which is to 'quiet the mind' through meditation - but this is not the same as true Christian meditation, which involves using the mind to think about God and various aspects of Him and the Incarnation (and other Christian topics). In many Eastern meditations, the breath is associated with a mantra (a word or phrase repeated over and over) in an effort to silence all thought and enter into a state of 'samadhi' or 'nirvana' which basically means union with the divine - but not a personal union such as Christians experience in contemplation, but as has been stated above, a sort of 'personal annihilation' of the ego state and perhaps an experience of 'bliss'. Although many Christians also use forms of breath meditation and repetitious phrases such as the Jesus Prayer, the focus for these should be on the Presence of God and not the Absence of Self! Perhaps that is why Centring Prayer is so controversial (let's not go there).

On the other hand, it is important not to confuse Quietism with Contemplation , which can lead to a transforming union with God, thus seeming to be self-annihilating. But this experience is a complete gift from God and does not annihilate the individual soul, but transform it through His love and make one even more aware of His beauty. The deepest experiences of Christian contemplation also make one even more aware of themself as a individual who has been created to adore and worship God.

Jesus came to establish a very personal relationship between us and God - not to teach us to annihilate our own identities. Quietism is dangerous because it can start out with something as simple as wanting to do the will of God, which is an admirable desire, but end up completely paralysing a person who might decide never to do anything on their own but to 'wait' on God for all things - basically demanding that God perform for us through signs and other means.

As for contemplation, St John talks about this union in the Living Flame of Love and in the last stanza you can see that he talks about the 'Beloved' and he obviously continues to exist as an individual because he describes the experience as happening in 'his' heart. As someone who did Eastern meditation for many years before becoming a Christian, I can honestly say that there is simply no comparison. What I learned was how to sit still and how to quieten my mind. I even had deep experiences of what I considered to be the Divine, and my understanding was that 'God is unbearable compassion'. But when Jesus came into my life and made His Presence known to me, I saw the difference between a candle and the sun. And even that doesn't fully describe it because the sun is also a part of creation, whereas God is the creator. Without Jesus, meditation is a road to nowhere.



[b][u]The Living Flame of Love (St John of the Cross)

[/u]1. O living flame of love[/b]
[b]that tenderly wounds my soul [/b]
[b]in its deepest center! Since [/b]
[b]now you are not oppressive, [/b]
[b]now consummate! if it be your will: [/b]
[b]tear through the veil of this sweet encounter! [/b]

[b]2. O sweet cautery, [/b]
[b]O delightful wound! [/b]
[b]O gentle hand! O delicate touch [/b]
[b]that tastes of eternal life [/b]
[b]and pays every debt! [/b]
[b]In killing you changed death to life. [/b]

[b]3. O lamps of fire! [/b]
[b]in whose splendors [/b]
[b]the deep caverns of feeling, [/b]
[b]once obscure and blind, [/b]
[b]now give forth, so rarely, so exquisitely, [/b][b]both warmth and light to their Beloved. [/b]

[b]4. How gently and lovingly[/b]
[b]you wake in my heart,[/b]
[b]where in secret you dwell alone;[/b]
[b]and in your sweet breathing,[/b]
[b]filled with good and glory,[/b] [b]how tenderly you swell my heart with love. [/b]
[/quote]

Ha! My mind is never quiet/

[Debra Little]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1308926648' post='2258080']
Did Thomas Merton confuse Quetism and Contemplation?
[/quote]

Centering Prayer is not the same thing as Mental Prayer. Centering Prayer is based on Eastern religious meditation.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1308971435' post='2258367']
Centering Prayer is not the same thing as Mental Prayer. Centering Prayer is based on Eastern religious meditation.
[/quote]


Debra - I am so glad to hear that your faith is being strengthened. Perhaps it has helped me that I was at the other end of the spectrum before I came to the faith! because I know where all the dead ends are! I was raised in an agnostic household and waivered between atheism and agnosticism before I started investigating other religions and finally ended with Eastern religions and mysticism and I even ended up a mediation teacher for many years. Even after I became a Catholic, it wasn't until a spiritual director helped me to see Jesus' role in all of this, and realize that He is alive and active in His relationship with us, that I finally 'came home' for good.

Although I know quite a lot about Centring Prayer first hands, it is my understanding (I could be wrong) that we are not supposed to discuss this topic on the phorum because it is controversial and brings up dissention. If you google CP and Vatican though, you should get some good advice about it. The same thing for anything you are not quite sure about and where the Church stands in her teachings about it. When you are unsure, go to the source, the Vatican documents about any topic. And always err on the side of caution when in doubt. Faith is a very precious seed and we need to nurture it to help it grow and bear fruit.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1308972682' post='2258380']
Debra - I am so glad to hear that your faith is being strengthened. Perhaps it has helped me that I was at the other end of the spectrum before I came to the faith! because I know where all the dead ends are! I was raised in an agnostic household and waivered between atheism and agnosticism before I started investigating other religions and finally ended with Eastern religions and mysticism and I even ended up a mediation teacher for many years. Even after I became a Catholic, it wasn't until a spiritual director helped me to see Jesus' role in all of this, and realize that He is alive and active in His relationship with us, that I finally 'came home' for good.

Although I know quite a lot about Centring Prayer first hands, it is my understanding (I could be wrong) that we are not supposed to discuss this topic on the phorum because it is controversial and brings up dissention. If you google CP and Vatican though, you should get some good advice about it. The same thing for anything you are not quite sure about and where the Church stands in her teachings about it. When you are unsure, go to the source, the Vatican documents about any topic. And always err on the side of caution when in doubt. Faith is a very precious seed and we need to nurture it to help it grow and bear fruit.
[/quote]

I have read about it and I don't like what I read. I am sorry for bringing it up
and I didn't realize it was off topic. I apologize and thank you so much
for letting me know.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1308971195' post='2258364']
I have had so much peace since God gave me the gift of faith.
[/quote]
May God continue to shower you with His grace.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1308972682' post='2258380']
Debra - I am so glad to hear that your faith is being strengthened. Perhaps it has helped me that I was at the other end of the spectrum before I came to the faith! because I know where all the dead ends are! I was raised in an agnostic household and waivered between atheism and agnosticism before I started investigating other religions and finally ended with Eastern religions and mysticism and I even ended up a mediation teacher for many years. Even after I became a Catholic, it wasn't until a spiritual director helped me to see Jesus' role in all of this, and realize that He is alive and active in His relationship with us, that I finally 'came home' for good.

Although I know quite a lot about Centring Prayer first hands, it is my understanding (I could be wrong) that we are not supposed to discuss this topic on the phorum because it is controversial and brings up dissention. If you google CP and Vatican though, you should get some good advice about it. The same thing for anything you are not quite sure about and where the Church stands in her teachings about it. When you are unsure, go to the source, the Vatican documents about any topic. And always err on the side of caution when in doubt. Faith is a very precious seed and we need to nurture it to help it grow and bear fruit.
[/quote]

I was raised in the Christian Reformed Church, have been to Pentecostal, Baptist, Charismatic, Lutheran.
I only found my home when I converted to the Catholic faith. It was only after I joined the Church that I
stopped searching for the truth, as far as religions go.

I also checked out Bhuddist and Wiccan.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308976141' post='2258436']
May God continue to shower you with His grace.
[/quote]

Thank You.