Vincent Vega Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' timestamp='1308936996' post='2258136']Yadda yadda [/quote] Glad to see you around these parts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 my contribution ::: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz thanks for listening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308930587' post='2258105'] First. You're welcome. Second. The Mass hasn't changed, the translation of the Mass has changed. If it were just celebrated in Latin, all of this would be a moot issue, right? If Mass were in Latin, there wouldn't be in-fighting over translations, or wording or any of that. And by moving toward a common language for all of the Masses in all of the World, it would stand to reason that other things could become eaiser to regulate, like the rubrics and music, because there would not need to be adaptations, based upon what is said when and how...and what translation of the music you'll have to find. Third. I've shown several times that hymnody isn't part of the mind of the Church when it comes to the Mass. Hymnody is the mind of man who assists at Mass. That is a big difference and it is key. The Mass is not about he who assists, because he who assists, simply partakes in a bigger experience. it is the Church herself who regulates and determines...it is then the job of the bishop to pour forth that regulation, and where he cannot, he has a priest to do it for him...so even the priest and bishop don't really have a say in how the regulation goes, but rather that they simply implement it according to the mind of the Church (or Authentic Magisterium). Finally, I grew up with the Novus Ordo too. I was born after Vatican Council II...I took the time to study and eventually made it my focus in college and postgrad. So, I think to just say it was up to the local Church isn't quite good enough...and the Church herself came to the same conclusion at the end of the document Redemptionis Sacramentum. [/quote] When I find more time I'll have to go through this whole thread but for now I have a question (after reading the above post). Would it be proper, in your opinion, to allow for arrangements of traditional latin texts that were not chant? For instance, the Mass at which I sing includes a choral introit (more often than not this is chant), and a chant (or something like a psalm is traditionally done at Mass) before our communion piece. We don't do any congregational singing during Communion - it's all choir or organ. There are hymns but they are traditional texts, nothing "fluffy". I think it's great (er, great improvement) and is relatively new. (Read: we've only had it for a year or two now.) However, our communion anthems are often things like Schubert or Bach or Mozart. We sing big, impressive pieces for the Kyrie and the Gloria. Our parish seems split on this method. Some people recognize our efforts to lift their minds and hearts to God, to a place outside of themselves and their worldly comforts. Some argue that they have a hard time participating when we take ten minutes to sing our arrangements of the Kyrie and Gloria. We do the same for the Sanctus (sometimes). These aren't chants and yet I think they are fitting. I prefer them above all else I've ever witnessed firsthand. I fear, however, that you might say even this is inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308945175' post='2258188'] When I find more time I'll have to go through this whole thread but for now I have a question (after reading the above post). Would it be proper, in your opinion, to allow for arrangements of traditional latin texts that were not chant? For instance, the Mass at which I sing includes a choral introit (more often than not this is chant), and a chant (or something like a psalm is traditionally done at Mass) before our communion piece. We don't do any congregational singing during Communion - it's all choir or organ. There are hymns but they are traditional texts, nothing "fluffy". I think it's great (er, great improvement) and is relatively new. (Read: we've only had it for a year or two now.) However, our communion anthems are often things like Schubert or Bach or Mozart. We sing big, impressive pieces for the Kyrie and the Gloria. Our parish seems split on this method. Some people recognize our efforts to lift their minds and hearts to God, to a place outside of themselves and their worldly comforts. Some argue that they have a hard time participating when we take ten minutes to sing our arrangements of the Kyrie and Gloria. We do the same for the Sanctus (sometimes). These aren't chants and yet I think they are fitting. I prefer them above all else I've ever witnessed firsthand. I fear, however, that you might say even this is inappropriate. [/quote] I think that if it can be rendered apt, then it can be acceptable. But there are parameters to that... I think though, with all things being equal, Gregorian chant should be given pride of place. So, if your parish is singing the propers and the ordinaries, and they are to a more modern composition, it could be acceptable based upon the criteria the Church puts forth as acceptable. I also think that the faithful should not be simply given that completely. There should be a majority of the time in Gregorian Chant as that is what is proper to the two forms of the Roman Rite, but an occasional movement to a more modern composition would not be out of the question. Again, all of this is prefaced, by the fact that it would need to fit the parameters of the Mass, as dictated by Holy Mother Church. No deviation, no innovation. The hymns are not acceptable, though, I guess I forgot to add that...If you were to do them as a prelude or postlude that would be acceptable, but not during the Mass itself. Edited June 24, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308947275' post='2258223'] I think that if it can be rendered apt, then it can be acceptable. But there are parameters to that... I think though, with all things being equal, Gregorian chant should be given pride of place. So, if your parish is singing the propers and the ordinaries, and they are to a more modern composition, it could be acceptable based upon the criteria the Church puts forth as acceptable. I also think that the faithful should not be simply given that completely. There should be a majority of the time in Gregorian Chant as that is what is proper to the two forms of the Roman Rite, but an occasional movement to a more modern composition would not be out of the question. Again, all of this is prefaced, by the fact that it would need to fit the parameters of the Mass, as dictated by Holy Mother Church. No deviation, no innovation. [/quote] I am sad to say I am so far removed from my learning of proper terms that I am lost in your first sentence. I do, however, understand the bulk of your message and appreciate your response. Our director is moving us very slowly back in time to something more traditional but is, unfortunately, bound to keep certain "feeling" in each Mass at our parish. We do have a Mass which has only Gregorian chant on Saturday evenings. It's sad it doesn't have a more "prime" spot on Sundays, but this is how it has been for as many years as I can remember. Generally speaking I like to think we have a nice music program in that so much time, money, and energy is put into it. I'd also like to think and say that the majority of the funds coming in are going to our two more-traditional Masses. It is interesting to me that on high feasts there is a significant amount of chant. All of our readings are chanted during the Triduum, including the Gospel. Our pastor will also choose to say the long form of the Mass, rather than cutting things "where permissible", which I love. One more music-related question: on Good Friday the passion is chanted by three male cantors, none of whom are clergy. Is this common? I imagine if it were unacceptable it would not be happening (especially considering our pastor is a Canon Lawyer and seems quite proud of (and rigid about) his at least moderate adherence to high tradition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308947962' post='2258228'] One more music-related question: on Good Friday the passion is chanted by three male cantors, none of whom are clergy. Is this common? I imagine if it were unacceptable it would not be happening (especially considering our pastor is a Canon Lawyer and seems quite proud of (and rigid about) his at least moderate adherence to high tradition). [/quote] Yes. That has been done in parishes for a very long time... Remember one thing though...just because a priest is a Canon Lawyer doesn't mean that he is necessarily adept in the liturgy. Liturgical Law is a totally different discipline... To think of it in lay terms, it would be like saying that a tax lawyer is adept at criminal litigation. It just doesn't fly. Now that's not to say a tax lawyer won't understand a criminal case, but I certainly wouldn't want him representing me.....does that make it clearer....? Finally, I would say this...if someone is very versed in the liturgy, as far as he can go, he will have an STD or a Sacred Doctorate in Theology. A Canon Lawyer will have what is called a JCD or a Doctorate in Canon Law....so essentially they can have the same education, but the priest with an STD won't be called a Liturgical lawyer....it is just change in terminology, not in education. Edited June 24, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308948683' post='2258235'] Yes. That has been done in parishes for a very long time... Remember one thing though...just because a priest is a Canon Lawyer doesn't mean that he is necessarily adept in the liturgy. Liturgical Law is a totally different discipline... To think of it in lay terms, it would be like saying that a tax lawyer is adept at criminal litigation. It just doesn't fly. Now that's not to say a tax lawyer won't understand a criminal case, but I certainly wouldn't want him representing me.....does that make it clearer....? [/quote] Yes, and I thought about that as I was typing it. Thanks for the breakdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308936844' post='2258134'] Not to belabor the point, but the whole new translation thing...not necessarily a fix....listen to Bob Hurd's new rendition... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGlpu6_c3gQ[/media] *DISCLAIMER* To all composers who might be reading this, please don't watch [i]Fiddler on the Roof[/i] right before you sit down to compose....this is what you get!!! --Thanks, All Catholics in the known world *DISCLAIMER* [/quote] I've said it again, and I will continue saying it until the day I die: Canedo's Mass setting is the single most inappropriate piece of music used in Church in the entire English speaking world. Bar none. If for some reason I can't attend morning Mass or noon Mass, I have to go to a parish that frequently uses that wretched setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308939381' post='2258148'] Glad to see you around these parts! [/quote] Good to see you, too! Glad someone remembered me. [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1308944668' post='2258182'] my contribution ::: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz thanks for listening [/quote] You sound like a bug (Unless your first language is Spanish, then you sound like a sparkler or dynamite wick)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) Ok, maybe I do want to belabor it a little....this one resembles RENT, quite a bit...I'm just sayin'.... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bpQzIaHbUM[/media] Compare it to this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbljhS4xDlU[/media] Now, here is a disclaimer....to all of this... I absolutely LOVE Rent. I am a huge Renthead. It's true. I've seen it on Broadway twice and probably off broadway 10 times. I loved LaBoeheme and I think that Jonathan Larson's vision was amazing...but I don't think that this style of music is at all appropriate for Holy Mass. Edited June 25, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308967647' post='2258350'] Ok, maybe I do want to belabor it a little....this one resembles RENT, quite a bit...I'm just sayin'.... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bpQzIaHbUM[/media] Compare it to this: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbljhS4xDlU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jbljhS4xDlU[/url] Now, here is a disclaimer....to all of this... I absolutely LOVE Rent. I am a huge Renthead. It's true. I've seen it on Broadway twice and probably off broadway 10 times. I loved LaBoeheme and I think that Jonathan Larson's vision was amazing...but I don't think that this style of music is at all appropriate for Holy Mass. [/quote] Actually, after giving it some more thought, I think that [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgQq8TTty9A[/media] Fits too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308936844' post='2258134'] Not to belabor the point, but the whole new translation thing...not necessarily a fix....listen to Bob Hurd's new rendition... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGlpu6_c3gQ[/media] *DISCLAIMER* To all composers who might be reading this, please don't watch [i]Fiddler on the Roof[/i] right before you sit down to compose....this is what you get!!! --Thanks, All Catholics in the known world *DISCLAIMER* [/quote] I know now the world is coming to an end, because I agree this is absolutely TERRIBLE music. However all I could think o=f was West Side story, not Fiddler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308948683' post='2258235'] ... but the priest with an STD won't be called a Liturgical lawyer... [/quote] Shouldn't happen. They take a vow of celibacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I concur with whatever teh Sacred Music Man has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Not my will Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308845022' post='2257700'] We all have our ideal way the liturgy should be done, and the music, but most of us live in the real world where parishes struggle to fill the seats, pay the electric bills, and keep a priest on hand to do the sacraments. We are grateful to have a mass, even if it isn't perfect. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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