dells_of_bittersweet Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Here are my thoughts on music at Mass: 1. Gather Hymal=Bad. Okay, I'll admit that there are some good songs in there, but on the whole, it's a lousy hymnal. The songs are not conducive to congregational singing. They are slow and sad, too hard to sing, and in too high a key. Also, the lyrics to most of the songs tend to be of low value (I think they are too trite and theologically unimportant-Gather Us In, for example), and often are very liberal. In general, Gather songs do not convey reverence or any sense of being in the presence of God. Very few people can lift their minds and hearts to God with a Gather Hymnal. 2. Chant=Good. Especially for the Mass parts (kryie, Great Amen, Holy Holy Holy, etc.). Gregorian Chant creates a profound sense of the sacred, and everybody can sing along. 3. Praise and Worship music=Good if done correctly. Especially for entrance and closing songs, and there are some really good slow/quiet ones for Communion. Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Hillsong, and some Casting Crowns and MercyMe pieces. Everybody can and does sing along to music from this genre, and it really helps people lift their mind and heart to God. In comparison to Gather, the lyrics are usually profound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I would get rid of P&W entirely. Some hymns, though [u]rarely[/u] used, and only the [i]most[/i] traditional. Almost exclusively Gregorian chant, polyphony on special feasts, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dells_of_bittersweet Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308798611' post='2257518'] I would get rid of P&W entirely. Some hymns, though [u]rarely[/u] used, and only the [i]most[/i] traditional. Almost exclusively Gregorian chant, polyphony on special feasts, etc.. [/quote] Are you speaking with the authority of the Church or from personal opinion? If so, please quote relevant document. Would like to hear your reasoning behind your opinion on P&W and hymns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1308799514' post='2257526'] Are you speaking with the authority of the Church or from personal opinion? If so, please quote relevant document. Would like to hear your reasoning behind your opinion on P&W and hymns. [/quote] Both, but more from the Church's perspective, as you will see in our very recent debate on the same topic. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113386"]Sacred Music vs. Secular Music in Mass[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308798611' post='2257518'] I would get rid of P&W entirely. Some hymns, though [u]rarely[/u] used, and only the [i]most[/i] traditional. Almost exclusively Gregorian chant, polyphony on special feasts, etc.. [/quote] In most cases chant will not be making a comeback anytime soon, so I would take P & W over the Gather croutons any day of the week. I am SO sick of hearing now it is time for our gathering hymn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 If the hymn was written 500 years ago by a protestant, I'm not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1308803986' post='2257583'] If the hymn was written 500 years ago by a protestant, I'm not a fan. [/quote] and mot of them are better than Gather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308803968' post='2257582'] In most cases chant will not be making a comeback anytime soon, so I would take P & W over the Gather croutons any day of the week. I am SO sick of hearing now it is time for our gathering hymn [/quote] I disagree. I think we're starting to see things turning around. Slowly, of course; the Church works slowly. It's coming though. I pray that it's in my lifetime. In the meantime, I think it's part of our duties as Catholic laypeople to keep fighting for our musical heritage. ETA: We're already seeing it turn around in some diocese and in some parishes. The FSSP I think will be integral in the coming years, and hopefully the SSPX as well. Edited June 23, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308804152' post='2257589'] I disagree. I think we're starting to see things turning around. Slowly, of course; the Church works slowly. It's coming though. I pray that it's in my lifetime. In the meantime, I think it's part of our duties as Catholic laypeople to keep fighting for our musical heritage. [/quote] People can't want what they have not heard, and if you talk to the average parish musician, chant is last on their list, so the chances of hearing it in a parish seem to me, slim to none. Even getting the Agnus Dei done at Mass is difficult. I do remember the beauty of the Litany of the Saints, and the Easter Masses chanted and I do miss them. I am hoping the Anglican catholics will bring some beauty and reverence back to our churches by their good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308804437' post='2257592'] People can't want what they have not heard, and if you talk to the average parish musician, chant is last on their list, so the chances of hearing it in a parish seem to me, slim to none. Even getting the Agnus Dei done at Mass is difficult. I do remember the beauty of the Litany of the Saints, and the Easter Masses chanted and I do miss them. I am hopnig the Anglican catholics will bring some beauty and reverence back to our churches by their good example. [/quote] I'm not so sure. There are more out there than you'd think. Nobody would ever think by looking at me what my views are on sacred music. I haven't been educated formally in it, and I have no particular connection to the subject area. I grew up in a pretty typical kind of lame suburban parish never having heard chant (literally not once). Yet I do know about it, and I do want it. I think there are people like me. I am convinced that the average parishioner is sick of the croutons they've been using over the last while. The trick now is educating the average person about precisely what they've been missing, and why it's important. Many will oppose chant because it's old and because they don't like it. On the other hand, they tend to be, more often than not, the kinds of people that reject Church documents from the 50s or earlier because they're old and they don't like hearing what they have to say. Should we pander to the lowest common denominator? Of course not. Instead we should be reaching out to those in the middle and showing them exactly how much they've had cheated of them by poor choir directors and progressive pastors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308804740' post='2257595'] I'm not so sure. There are more out there than you'd think. Nobody would ever think by looking at me what my views are on sacred music. I haven't been educated formally in it, and I have no particular connection to the subject area. I grew up in a pretty typical kind of lame suburban parish never having heard chant (literally not once). Yet I do know about it, and I do want it. I think there are people like me. I am convinced that the average parishioner is sick of the croutons they've been using over the last while. The trick now is educating the average person about precisely what they've been missing, and why it's important. Many will oppose chant because it's old and because they don't like it. On the other hand, they tend to be, more often than not, the kinds of people that reject Church documents from the 50s or earlier because they're old and they don't like hearing what they have to say. Should we pander to the lowest common denominator? Of course not. Instead we should be reaching out to those in the middle and showing them exactly how much they've had cheated of them by poor choir directors and progressive pastors. [/quote] I don't think its pastors who are particularly " progressive" I think its just them following what they were taught in the seminaries back in the day - its the whole system. Our bishops came out of those same schools, and if we are to have change it has to come from them. Thats not exactly how I wanted to say it but I'm too tired to think about it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 What I have seen/heard P & W can be done well for Mass and done appropriately it has provided for myself the most moving moments to incline me into worship for the Mass. As far as the other stuffy goes, hymns make me cry half the time (in a bad way) because they are just done so poorly. Chant....I love a [i]good[/i] chant, which simply can't be done everywhere except in pockets around regions from what I have noticed. The thing we forget about the Catholic Church is that there are variant depths and varieties of worship, which are condoned by the church, because just like God, the Church tries to embody the vast variety of humanity within it's fold, which is one of the reasons why we have such a rich Faith to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308805317' post='2257601'] I don't think its pastors who are particularly " progressive" I think its just them following what they were taught in the seminaries back in the day - its the whole system. Our bishops came out of those same schools, and if we are to have change it has to come from them. Thats not exactly how I wanted to say it but I'm too tired to think about it . [/quote] Progressive pastors came from progressive seminaries. Unfortunately there are a lot of progressive bishops too. A large portion of the system has been flawed for quite some time. That is part of the reason that I say the FSSP will be such an important influence, along with the ICRSS and, God willing, the SSPX as well. We need to purify the entire thing; get rid of the Modernism, the progressivism, and the simple ignorance that clogs everything up. Where does it start? Probably everywhere at once. We have some good bishops and some good priests and some good theologians, and all of them working together will be able to make our seminaries and catechesis shape up. However, there's so much inertia built up. I used that metaphor elsewhere and remembered how much I like it. Lots of people are going to drag their feet. Maybe some of the poor pastors need to be shuffled off to retirement homes. Maybe a lot of crummy professors of theology need to be fired. The bishops I suppose just need to retire, but a lot of them are reaching that age anyway. The point is that we, as Catholic laypeople, have the right to demand these things. We have the right to better catechesis than this, and better sacred music, and better liturgies. We can't let ourselves get complacent because "it's not our place" or because "nothing is going to change anyway", or any of the other excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308805343' post='2257602'] What I have seen/heard P & W can be done well for Mass and done appropriately it has provided for myself the most moving moments to incline me into worship for the Mass. As far as the other stuffy goes, hymns make me cry half the time (in a bad way) because they are just done so poorly. Chant....I love a [i]good[/i] chant, which simply can't be done everywhere except in pockets around regions from what I have noticed. The thing we forget about the Catholic Church is that there are variant depths and varieties of worship, which are condoned by the church, because just like God, the Church tries to embody the vast variety of humanity within it's fold, which is one of the reasons why we have such a rich Faith to begin with. [/quote] The first two sentences of your post are simply your own view and have no relevance on the Church at large. I am glad you love a good chant, but I disagree...we chant all the time, even in the most liberal churches, but they don't call it chant, because the liberals have this need to be avant garde... The Church NEVER envisioned there to be variants and varieties of worship. NEVER. Her understanding of proper liturigical worhsip is that her liturgy follow the Roman MIssal, for the Roman Rite. This can be done either in the OF or the EF. That is the most variation we are allowed. Any movement away from the rubrics and the approved Church forms of music is an abuse, no matter how widespread or how isolated. Show me where the Church says that praise and worship music is to be the accepted form of musical worship? I can show you countless places, documents, statements and papal opinion, where chant is to be the norm. The fact that we don't have it is as the norm everywhere is an abuse. We can even take this a step further and parrot something I've said on the other thread...show me where traditional Catholic hymnody is to be the normative musical expression of the Church? If you're going to hold that those forms of music are appropirate and that the "other stuffy makes you sad," what is your basis for this... The hermeneutic of rupture needs to be mended and addressing proper worship is #1 on the list. People might not like it, but then again people need to be educated, for as Bishop Sample said to the entire body of the USCCB that he was from a generation which received no real catechesis and we've passed that along to the next generation. So, when authentic catechesis comes out, resistance is expected...but hardness of heart is not. We need to be open to looking at what the Church actually wants and not just at what we want, even if it is "stuffy stuff that makes us sad." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1308797546' post='2257514'] Here are my thoughts on music at Mass: 1. Gather Hymal=Bad. Okay, I'll admit that there are some good songs in there, but on the whole, it's a lousy hymnal. The songs are not conducive to congregational singing. They are slow and sad, too hard to sing, and in too high a key. Also, the lyrics to most of the songs tend to be of low value (I think they are too trite and theologically unimportant-Gather Us In, for example), and often are very liberal. In general, Gather songs do not convey reverence or any sense of being in the presence of God. Very few people can lift their minds and hearts to God with a Gather Hymnal. 2. Chant=Good. Especially for the Mass parts (kryie, Great Amen, Holy Holy Holy, etc.). Gregorian Chant creates a profound sense of the sacred, and everybody can sing along. 3. Praise and Worship music=Good if done correctly. Especially for entrance and closing songs, and there are some really good slow/quiet ones for Communion. Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Hillsong, and some Casting Crowns and MercyMe pieces. Everybody can and does sing along to music from this genre, and it really helps people lift their mind and heart to God. In comparison to Gather, the lyrics are usually profound. [/quote] 1. Employs music which is not envisioned by the Church for use in her worship 2. Employs music which is envisioned by the Church for use in her worship 3. Is a form of music which is wholly inappropriate for use in the liturgical action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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