Archdiocese Of Boston Open Mass To Be Held

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Santa Cruz' timestamp='1308612426' post='2256551']
Thank you for clarifying. Honestly, I was not sure based upon what I read in your first response to this thread (pasted below). Yes, ultimately, a person who commits the sin of engaging in same sex relations may be damned to hell. But, we must remember there are many factors involved: 1. Are they aware that it is a sin? 2. Are they free to make a decision? 3. What have we done as a Church to reach out to them and lead them into the fullness of Truth? Most of all, as in today's Gospel message, we are not to make any rash judgments of any person. Yes, we can judge an action but never a person, we are obligated to offer fraternal correction, not condemn. You seem to me to be judging that they will go to hell? Why is not this pastor attempting to charitably lead the strayed back to the fullness of Truth? Why is he condoning same sex relations?
[/quote]
I have, over the last few years, developed my writing style such that I never imply that someone will go to hell. I am always extremely precise when I speak in this manner. All I will ever say is that a person who dies in a state of unrepentant mortal sin will go to hell.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308612592' post='2256552']
The only way to get closer to the middle with the NCR is to put it down.
[/quote]

I find it hard sometimes when it comes to publications. Some Catholic papers are sympathetic to war efforts anti-Vatican some are not sympathetic to those trying to worship in a traditional way of spirit and truth anti-Vatican. I take it all in and go from there. I don't want anyone's slant on topics. So i read juxtaposing views and see where there is disagreement or harmony and see on how they agreed on that matter, if they agree for the same reason etc. Like i said sometimes a bitter pill to swallow but i strive for balance and the middle way....to quote siddharttha gautama aka buddha lol [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/amen.gif[/img]

[Santa Cruz]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308611272' post='2256543']
I'll come to this more concretely when I get home from work. I admit that I haven't read the new wording, but the event was previously put on hold precisely because it was causing scandal. I'll get that article when I get home. But I remember reading the comments from the pastor, and he was awfully ambiguous to the real reason for this Mass. His remarks bordered supporting homosexuality in such a way that the Church cannot.
[/quote]

Ah, thank you for clarifying! I was not aware of the history. This is my first time seeing this. No rush, but when you have time, I would appreciate seeing the original wording and the comments from the pastor. I will try to find it too. Wow! Well, thanks be to God that there was fraternal correction. The new wording is at the very beginning of this thread, pasted by KK and also with a link to visit the web page of the Archdiocese.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308612593' post='2256553']
I hear you; again, I think semantics are standing in our way. I can roll with "inclination" since that's the word I tend to use anyway.

It's interesting to me, you bring up thought. I've never really considered the idea of a disordered thought. Perhaps a misguided thought, a delusion, etc. Oh semantics!
[/quote]

ah yes, this is why i come to phatmass...for the empathy lol. yeah its an interesting topic. i love the Church. it is the most precisely worded institution...ever

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308613113' post='2256558']
it is the most precisely worded institution...ever
[/quote]
right?!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308612968' post='2256556']
I find it hard sometimes when it comes to publications. Some Catholic papers are sympathetic to war efforts anti-Vatican some are not sympathetic to those trying to worship in a traditional way of spirit and truth anti-Vatican. I take it all in and go from there. I don't want anyone's slant on topics. So i read juxtaposing views and see where there is disagreement or harmony and see on how they agreed on that matter, if they agree for the same reason etc.
[/quote]
So you'd rather read a publication that one time was kind of close to the Church's (or, rather, a Pope's) non-binding [i]opinion[/i] on a non-religious matter and is consistently way off base on matters of real, actual faith and morals? It's your funeral, I guess...

[quote]Like i said sometimes a bitter pill to swallow but i strive for balance and the middle way....to quote siddharttha gautama aka buddha lol [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/amen.gif[/img][/quote]

[Nihil Obstat]

The middle way is usually the wrong way, from the Church's perspective. There's no such thing as moderate Truth. Truth must be radical. There are no half-measures.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308613338' post='2256560']
So you'd rather read a publication that one time was kind of close to the Church's (or, rather, a Pope's) non-binding [i]opinion[/i] on a non-religious matter and is consistently way off base on matters of real, actual faith and morals? It's your funeral, I guess...



[/quote]

I do read l'osservatore romano if that is what you mean but unfortunately the pope does not do a nightly news broadcast. and we have a load of great reporters and writers for ALL catholic publications and i go to them in light of Inter Mirifica and read and inform myself.

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308612226' post='2256550']
@fransiscan heart

Total sense. its just that it poses a logical fallacy for me that's all simply because attraction is unconscionable i don't see how you can try to define it. It's like saying a thought is disordered. That is why i think the church chose inclination in its wording which relates more to a tendency which is not as concrete as desire. I hope that makes sense. It's just that inclination is a really flexible word and i think because of lack of scientific and psychological evidence the CDF chose it on purpose. but that's just me. i read inclination and desire/attraction/feeling to represent two differing things. not unrelated though.
[/quote]

I guess I'm not seeing where the difficulty is or the "logical fallacy".

A thought can be disordered. There are people who can't control their thoughts and their mind immediately ventures into inappropriate mental images. Those thoughts are disordered. Those thoughts can either be A) disordered and not sinful or B) disordered AND sinful.

Something is disordered when it is not in line with how God made it to be. That goes for thoughts, actions, physical attributes, etc.

Disordered doesn't necessarily imply conscious choice. It can, when referring to actions. But it can also be used regarding other things, such as I mentioned above. Including attractions and appetites.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308614055' post='2256565']
I guess I'm not seeing where the difficulty is or the "logical fallacy".

A thought can be disordered. There are people who can't control their thoughts and their mind immediately ventures into inappropriate mental images. Those thoughts are disordered. Those thoughts can either be A) disordered and not sinful or B) disordered AND sinful.

Something is disordered when it is not in line with how God made it to be. That goes for thoughts, actions, physical attributes, etc.

Disordered doesn't necessarily imply conscious choice. It can, when referring to actions. But it can also be used regarding other things, such as I mentioned above. Including attractions and appetites.
[/quote]


But when it comes to 'disordered thoughts' if they exist that is just working through temptation, which is not disordered but ordered. See what I mean. So if an attraction exists and it is worked through and not acted upon how is it disordered then? Thoughts can go away but we always think whereas attraction remains constant. Its to hard to grasp for me I am a biblical theologian not an ethicist. I feel it is action that condemns or justifies the desire or thought is a test you might say. can a test be disordered or only our response to it. hmmmm?

[Cam42]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308608896' post='2256514']
@Cam42
I totally get you bro. but the meat of the matter is the act. The act is gravely disordered. It is logically impossible for the desire to be. Desires are not decided by us. I could not decide to like liver tomorrow. I could pretend I do and eat all day but that would not change my distaste for it. A guy can not decide to all of a sudden desire some random lady otherwise unattractive to that he sees walking past him. It happens naturally. Why? We will never know. About the act though we can say it is disordered, deprived, grave etc. I totally agree but The desire for companionship and expressing through your body the longing you have another is not wrong in fact it is very God like. BUT it does not make the act right or anything. I think we need to understand that good level headed people in general are not looking for sex but for a companion and in the married life sex comes with it but unity is a HUGE factor. The fact that a girl may not be attracted to a guy is not her decision. But that does not subtract from the holy and natural desire for companionship that all humans possess. If she desires to be a faithful Catholic she must then sacrifice that desire daily to God no because of itself but because of what it would manifest in action=disorder.
[/quote]


This also has a genus in the realm of psychology. Using your own quote from earlier:

CCC #2358
[quote]The number of men and women who have [b]deep-seated homosexual tendencies[/b] is not negligible. [b]This inclination, which is objectively disordered[/b], constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of [b]unjust discrimination[/b] in their regard [b]should be avoided.[/b] These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, [b]to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/b][/quote]

I didn't think that I would need to post that since you posted it, yourself earlier, but you can see that the desires (tendencies) cannot be separated from the act. The inclination is objectively disordered.

CCC #2359
[quote]Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of [b]self-mastery that teach them inner freedom[/b], at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [/quote]

This assumes the whole person, not just the action of the person. As I've said, we are to support them, but we are also to know that their desires and their actions are disordered. Insofar as that is the case, the Church teaches that the homosexual person is united to his action and his desires, just as a heterosexual. The issue is that the heterosexual is operating with the natural law, the homosexual is not.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Here is the original article I read on the matter: [url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/06/13/priest_says_all_are_welcome_in_his_church/"]Priest Says All Are Welcome[/url]

Here are the excerpts that I found troubling:

[quote]
During the first Mass since the Archdiocese of Boston canceled one planned for next weekend [b]in support of St. Cecilia’s gay and lesbian churchgoers[/b], the Rev. John J. Unni preached a fiery message of unconditional love and what he called “acceptance of all.’’

“You are welcome here, gay or straight, rich or poor, young or old, black or white,’’ Unni said as he paced up and down the center aisle. [b]“Here, you all can say, ‘I can worship the God who made me as I am.’ ’’[/b][/quote]

There are two different ways one can read this excerpt. The first is that this is a support of homosexuals [i]as identifying as homosexuals[/i]. Or as supporting brothers and sisters who are suffering from SSA. Perhaps the latter is meant... but what is the average American going to think when they read this? My bet is that they're going to think that it's support of homosexuals as identifying as homosexuals and that it's okay to be a practicing homosexual.

[quote]After last Sunday’s bulletin advertised a June 19 evening Mass, themed “All Are Welcome’’ to celebrate Boston’s Gay Pride Month, the archdiocese canceled the service, saying it gave the “unintended impression’’ that St. Cecilia’s supported Gay Pride.[/quote]

I agree- especially from what was quoted above, and frankly... the phrase 'All Are Welcome' tend to give that unintended impression. My work parish is one that uses that phrase as its motto... and unfortunately it DOES mean "everyone-is-welcome-here-because-we-don't-make-any-comment-on-controversial-teachings-and-we're-going-to-let-you-live-however-you-want-to-live-and-support-your-fight-for-equal-rights".

[quote]St. Cecilia’s congregation has a large gay and lesbian population, many of whom arrived after the South End’s predominantly gay Jesuit Urban Center closed in 2007, parishioners said. Almost 200 members of St. Cecilia’s are now active in its Rainbow Ministry, which hosts events for members and supporters of the LGBT community.[/quote]

"Members and [b]supporters[/b]"... again, that word... "supporters". What does that mean? It's extremely ambiguous. If I say that I support LGBT community, what does that mean? Does it mean that I love those people who identify as LGBT and I want their good (which is authentic conversion)? Or does it mean that I am supportive of their lifestyle and the LGBT movement in our country? Most people, I'd think, would say the latter.

Now clearly there has been some rewording going on and the Archdiocese is now supporting the event. I think there is a HUGE difference, though, between a Mass that "celebrates" homosexuals, and a Mass that prays for homosexuals and their struggles.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308614681' post='2256568']
This also has a genus in the realm of psychology. Using your own quote from earlier:

CCC #2358


I didn't think that I would need to post that since you posted it, yourself earlier, but you can see that the desires (tendencies) cannot be separated from the act. The inclination is objectively disordered.

CCC #2359


This assumes the whole person, not just the action of the person. As I've said, we are to support them, but we are also to know that their desires and their actions are disordered. Insofar as that is the case, the Church teaches that the homosexual person is united to his action and his desires, just as a heterosexual. The issue is that the heterosexual is operating with the natural law, the homosexual is not.
[/quote]


Yeah man I gotcha. If you look up the page a bit we are discussing the inclination vs. desire thing. These things seem to deal with different realms of the person. Inclination seems more cerebral whereas desire and attraction seem more emotional. Inclination is the appropriate word as it umbrellas the issue. Just as a help to anyone interested here is the Oxford English Dictionary:

Inclination: [color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"]The condition of being mentally inclined or disposed to something, or an instance of such condition; a tendency or bent of the mind, will, or desires towards a particular object; disposition, propensity, leaning.[/font][/color]
[color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"]
[/font][/color]
[font="Georgia, Times,"][size="3"][color="#333333"]Desire: [/color][/size][/font][color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"]that feeling or emotion which is directed to the attainment or possession of some object from which pleasure or satisfaction is expected; longing, craving; a particular instance of this feeling, a wish.[/font][/color][color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"][size="2"][color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"]
[/font][/color][/size] [/font][/color]
[color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"][size="2"]Attraction:[/size][/font][/color][color="#333333"][font="Georgia, Times,"]The action of drawing forth interest, affection, or sympathy; [/font][/color]

Edited June 21, 2011 by katholikkid

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308614583' post='2256567']
But when it comes to 'disordered thoughts' if they exist that is just working through temptation, which is not disordered but ordered. See what I mean. So if an attraction exists and it is worked through and not acted upon how is it disordered then? Thoughts can go away but we always think whereas attraction remains constant. Its to hard to grasp for me I am a biblical theologian not an ethicist. I feel it is action that condemns or justifies the desire or thought is a test you might say. can a test be disordered or only our response to it. hmmmm?
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I still don't see where the hang-up is. I'm trying!

Grace re-orders the disorder, in all things. So, when it comes to disordered thoughts, yes, grace can re-order the thoughts ("work through temptation," as you say). The same can be said for sexual desires- homosexual or heterosexual.

There was a post a few months back (maybe even a year ago) by one of our phatmassers who struggles with same sex attraction, but remains faithful to the Church. He told of how, while the attraction still remained, grace helped control the attraction. I think we find the same thing regarding other sexual attractions and those who struggle with sexual sin. Think of masturbation and the power of grace in that matter. Or with someone who struggles with lust. Grace can and does reorient disordered attractions to ordered ones.

There are some disorders in the realm of nature that won't be completely put into order by grace until the end of time. Disease. Death. Deformity. Perhaps even SSA for some people.

[Papist]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308609447' post='2256520']
[font="Verdana"]NARTH is unaccredited. APA rejects them and they are not peer reviewed. Evangelical protestant groups fund it and here is a brief list of official psycho-analytical organizations that do not approve of NARTH's methods: [size="2"]American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and the Australian Psychological Society.[/size][/font]
[/quote]
[size=3]Of course NARTH is not accredited. Their research is based on actual patients that desire to NOT have same sex attraction. They don't base their research on adhering to a worldview. You are aware that gay activism, NOT research, was the force that drove the APA to declassify homosexuality as a disorder? [/size][font="Tahoma"][size=3] [/size][/font][font="Tahoma"][size=3]Gay activists have attempted to compel both the American Psychological and Psychiatric Associations to declare as unethical any type of therapy which encourages homosexuals to change. In both cases NARTH has stood as the only organized voice against this lobby.[/size][/font]

Edited June 21, 2011 by Papist