Archdiocese Of Boston Open Mass To Be Held

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308605356' post='2256469']
since my kids are still sleeping (thank you, Jesus!):

[url="http://www.wf-f.org/AOC.html"]http://www.wf-f.org/AOC.html[/url]
[url="http://culture-of-life.org/content/view/326/"]http://culture-of-li...ntent/view/326/[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicmediacoalition.org/USCCB_intrinsic_evil.htm"]http://www.catholicm...rinsic_evil.htm[/url] - Scroll down
[url="http://www.wf-f.org/alwaysourchldspr98.html"]http://www.wf-f.org/...rchldspr98.html[/url] - Statement by [b]Bishop[/b] [b]Bruskewitz[/b]

that's all i'm able to find at the moment.
[/quote]

all this is opinion which is valuable but i doubt there is any official ecclesial or scientific that is critical of 'Always Our Children'. Most Reverend Bruskewitz is a good man but i doubt his issue is with 'Always Our Children' rather it is with the USCCB in general. A quick reading of his history shows that he and they do not see eye to eye when it comes to publishing things of this nature.

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308605074' post='2256464']
Homosexuality is not a perversion of any sort. The act is. The Catechism says its origins remain unexplained though science and more recent church documents take the side of it being an intrinsic part of life. And to clarify once again I read everything [i]in media virtus est[/i]. To not know the parameters is to not know the middle, thus you are lost. Since homosexual activity is part of nature at large why are human beings exempt? Not to say that we act on animal instinct but just as a matter of identifying a possible intrinsic existence as natural.
[/quote]
In what sense do you understand the word "perversion"? I am using the word in the following sense:
"per·vert   
1.
to affect with perversion.
2.
to lead astray morally.
3.
to turn away from the right course."
Of course it's a perversion. It's a disordered inclination that will lead one to sin if not fought. Same-sex attraction is a disorder, a perversion of human nature. A consequence of the Fall.
With regards to your second part of that post, you're trying to change the subject. "If animals practice homosexuality, then it must be natural." I call shenanigans on that one. Humans are fundamentally different from the rest of Creation, and we have the capacity for moral thought.

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308605207' post='2256465']
how about something a bit more official and ecclesial? or scientific if possible.
[/quote]
Not necessary. Lil Red said that some have questioned the orthodoxy of Always Our Children. You asked for examples, and it took me ten seconds to find one.



[quote name='Santa Cruz' timestamp='1308605251' post='2256466']
You are correct, homosexuality is not natural and persons who suffer with same sex attraction have a disorder, an illness. HOWEVER, our culture has twisted the Truth, the sanctity of marriage, of the family and has fed people with lies that homosexuality is a viable way of life. So how does one evangelize persons who have eaten up the lie? You call them by name and then give them a new one...If they identify as homosexual, then call them by their own name, introduce them to Christ, teach them, walk with them and give them a new name, man, woman, human being, child of God...

I agree with you but it seems to me you want persons who are lost in this sin to suffer and die in hell?
[/quote]
There are a variety of ways to approach someone who identifies as homosexual with the Truth. Cam has one way that has worked in the past for him. I've never dealt with someone close to me who was going through that. Each and every case should be approached first of all as another person who has the capacity to know and follow the Truth.
As to the second part of your post, since it is both incorrect and cannot be substantiated [i]I will ask you to retract it[/i]. I hope and pray for everybody to be saved; I believe that to hope someone damned is among the most evil thoughts a Christian can have.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308605508' post='2256471']
I think you lack true understanding in this area. I'd expound but my post is already getting quite lengthy. Anyway, it seems (perhaps because of poor post construction) that you contradict yourself here. I read your follow-up to this and it made little sense. Perhaps you'd like to go find what you remember reading and post it here with credit given the author?
[/quote]
Point out where I have contradicted either myself or the Truth and I will clarify. If you can point nothing out then please do not insinuate.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308605989' post='2256478']
Point out where I have contradicted either myself or the Truth and I will clarify. If you can point nothing out then please do not insinuate.
[/quote]
I do not see where I insinuated anything; I stated pretty simply that it seemed (to me) you contradicted yourself. I did not state, nor did I insinuate, that you were actually intending to contradict yourself, but rather noted I was confused by your statements. Do you remember where you read what you were trying to regurgitate? I'm genuinely interested as I do not recall reading about the identification bit.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308606114' post='2256479']
I do not see where I insinuated anything; I stated pretty simply that it seemed (to me) you contradicted yourself. I did not state, nor did I insinuate, that you were actually intending to contradict yourself, but rather noted I was confused by your statements. Do you remember where you read what you were trying to regurgitate? I'm genuinely interested as I do not recall reading about the identification bit.
[/quote]
Point out anything that was contradictory in my posts and we'll work from there.
The thing that I read that I alluded to briefly was some of the arguments that Apotheoun has made in the past, both here and elsewhere, and to say that I was trying to regurgitate is rather insulting.

[katholikkid]

LilRed gave me some opinion pieces. big deal I could find opinion pieces supporting 'Always Are Children' but like i said if you find something official send it my way.

Your claim is that heterosexuality alone is the only natural sexual inclination for human beings. Obviously this is not true for animals in your world because they cannot know morality and are thus bound to their natural desire according to you. So according to you every human being is born heterosexual but the ones who claim homosexual identity are just confused or have misguided desires that they naturally desire the opposite sex they just don't know it. How does one get to such a state of confusion especially if they claim to be and are faithful chaste Catholics? Would they not get married by then?

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308606633' post='2256488']
Your claim is that heterosexuality alone is the only natural sexual inclination for human beings. Obviously this is not true for animals in your world because they cannot know morality and are thus bound to their natural desire according to you. So according to you every human being is born heterosexual but the ones who claim homosexual identity are just confused or have misguided desires that they naturally desire the opposite sex they just don't know it. How does one get to such a state of confusion especially if they claim to be and are faithful chaste Catholics? Would they not get married by then?
[/quote]
You're reading a lot of things in my post that wasn't necessarily there.

I'd remind you that in the [i]real[/i] world, animals besides humans cannot know moral principles or act on them. Not just in "my" world.
I actually don't care whether or not same-sex attraction is genetic or not. It doesn't matter. Some studies link alcoholism to genetics too; that doesn't make drunkenness right.
All mankind is born fallen. We are all inclined to sin because of concupiscence. This inclination to sin manifests itself differently in each person. Pride in one, sloth in another, lust in a third (homosexual or otherwise). However as it happens, homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Those inclined to lust to the opposite sex have maybe a bit of an easier time than those inclined to lust in the same sex, because at least attraction to the opposite sex can be purified and made sacred. Same-sex attraction must be rejected root and branch.
The reason so many Catholics are confused is that the Church has been in a state of crisis for some decades now, and a large proportion of Catholics, probably the majority, grow up not actually knowing the Truth, and passing on their errors to their children. It is sad and must be opposed.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308606560' post='2256487']
Point out anything that was contradictory in my posts and we'll work from there.
[/quote]
My apologies for not being more clear, I assumed my last response to you was more than sufficient in identifying my confusion. I was hoping to see those things which you read about homosexual identification. Reading through not only your responses but also the responses of others, it was unclear to me what point you were attempting to make about homosexual identity. Regardless, I'd like to see the more thoughtful and logical explanation of that line of thinking.

I'm hesitant to form an opinion one way or the other about the identification point without knowing what you're trying to communicate.

[Cam42]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308605508' post='2256471']

Cam, does the Church exclude persons who suffer with homosexual desires of any kind from religious life? (Curious. I guess I could google it...)


What is your personal opinion of COURAGE? I've never met anyone who has participated and know very little about the program itself.
[/quote]

Yes, the Church excludes persons who suffer with homosexual desires of any kind from religious life. It is the same principle as the guidelines for the priesthood. And as far as COURAGE goes, I like it. I think that it is a very balanced and very Catholic way of dealing with SSA. I don't think that it necessarily works for everyone, but if that person with SSA gives it an honest try and opens to the spirit of what the program and lifestyle is about, it does change hearts. There is real good work being done with them.

[url="http://www.couragerc.net/"]COURAGE[/url]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308607051' post='2256490']
My apologies for not being more clear, I assumed my last response to you was more than sufficient in identifying my confusion. I was hoping to see those things which you read about homosexual identification. Reading through not only your responses but also the responses of others, it was unclear to me what point you were attempting to make about homosexual identity. Regardless, I'd like to see the more thoughtful and logical explanation of that line of thinking.

I'm hesitant to form an opinion one way or the other about the identification point without knowing what you're trying to communicate.
[/quote]
I still don't know what you want from me. Do you want a page full of Apotheoun quotes? I'll shoot off a PM to him if that's what you're after.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308607011' post='2256489']
You're reading a lot of things in my post that wasn't necessarily there.

I'd remind you that in the [i]real[/i] world, animals besides humans cannot know moral principles or act on them. Not just in "my" world.
I actually don't care whether or not same-sex attraction is genetic or not. It doesn't matter. Some studies link alcoholism to genetics too; that doesn't make drunkenness right.
All mankind is born fallen. We are all inclined to sin because of concupiscence. This inclination to sin manifests itself differently in each person. Pride in one, sloth in another, lust in a third (homosexual or otherwise). However as it happens, homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Those inclined to lust to the opposite sex have maybe a bit of an easier time than those inclined to lust in the same sex, because at least attraction to the opposite sex can be purified and made sacred. Same-sex attraction must be rejected root and branch. The reason so many Catholics are confused is that the Church has been in a state of crisis for some decades now, and a large proportion of Catholics, probably the majority, grow up not actually knowing the Truth, and passing on their errors to their children. It is sad and must be opposed.
[/quote]
Drunkenness and alcoholism are two very different things. One is a symptom of the other, but drunkenness in and of itself does not indicate alcoholism.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1308607240' post='2256494']
Drunkenness and alcoholism are two very different things. One is a symptom of the other, but drunkenness in and of itself does not indicate alcoholism.
[/quote]
Alcoholism often leads to drunkenness, though drunkenness can be present without alcoholism, and alcoholism can be present without drunkenness.
Same sex attraction often leads to homosexual acts, though homosexual acts can be present without same-sex attraction, and same-sex attraction can be present without homosexual acts.

I think they're eminently comparable.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308607068' post='2256492']
Yes, the Church excludes persons who suffer with homosexual desires of any kind from religious life. It is the same principle as the guidelines for the priesthood. And as far as COURAGE goes, I like it. I think that it is a very balanced and very Catholic way of dealing with SSA. I don't think that it necessarily works for everyone, but if that person with SSA gives it an honest try and opens to the spirit of what the program and lifestyle is about, it does change hearts. There is real good work being done with them.

[url="http://www.couragerc.net/"]COURAGE[/url]
[/quote]
amesome, thank you. I'll check them out. I live in an area of town that is heavily populated by the LGBT community and information like this is always good to have.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308607181' post='2256493']
I still don't know what you want from me. Do you want a page full of Apotheoun quotes? I'll shoot off a PM to him if that's what you're after.
[/quote]
A link to the original post would be fine. I'm not sure if these were recent threads or older ones, if you remember them well enough to find them via search, etc. I was just hoping to get back to the source you were attempting to paraphrase.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308607011' post='2256489']
You're reading a lot of things in my post that wasn't necessarily there.

I'd remind you that in the [i]real[/i] world, animals besides humans cannot know moral principles or act on them. Not just in "my" world.
I actually don't care whether or not same-sex attraction is genetic or not. It doesn't matter. Some studies link alcoholism to genetics too; that doesn't make drunkenness right.
All mankind is born fallen. We are all inclined to sin because of concupiscence. This inclination to sin manifests itself differently in each person. Pride in one, sloth in another, lust in a third (homosexual or otherwise). However as it happens, homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Those inclined to lust to the opposite sex have maybe a bit of an easier time than those inclined to lust in the same sex, because at least attraction to the opposite sex can be purified and made sacred. Same-sex attraction must be rejected root and branch.
The reason so many Catholics are confused is that the Church has been in a state of crisis for some decades now, and a large proportion of Catholics, probably the majority, grow up not actually knowing the Truth, and passing on their errors to their children. It is sad and must be opposed.
[/quote]

It does matter if it is genetic. You must remember the idea freedom of choice when it comes to what makes up a sinful act. Same sex attraction exists thus it cannot be rejected root and branch because it is about people dealing with internal identity issues. Attractions are not extrinsic they are what make us people and individuals. Your desire for chocolate is not bad but do not "pervert" it and perform the sin of gluttony. Your desires are natural including our desire for God and wanting to obey him. But as the saints have taught us our desire to please God cannot become scrupulosity which is a sin. Desires are neutral, actions are not. If we act to reign in our bad desires then we have done good; if we act to selfishly fulfill that passion that is a wrong act. The desire is neutral. Not a great analogy but like knowledge. Knowing how to abort is not bad. Abortion is bad. Considering something is how humans exist. We think thoughts. But we must control them for the great glory of God. But to think, feel, and desire is human thus natural.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308607481' post='2256495']
Alcoholism often leads to drunkenness, though drunkenness can be present without alcoholism, and alcoholism can be present without drunkenness.
Same sex attraction often leads to homosexual acts, though homosexual acts can be present without same-sex attraction, and same-sex attraction can be present without homosexual acts.

I think they're eminently comparable.
[/quote]
I'm sorry did you just imply that people who are not attracted to the same sex are participating in same-sex sexual relations?