Archdiocese Of Boston Open Mass To Be Held

[katholikkid]

And the NCR is an objectively heterodox/heretical publication.
[/quote]

It's not like none of those publications don't have an ax to grind. I read all because you never know. So when the Iraq war began the Register was not in line with the Vatican as much as the Reporter was. Vice versa for other ethical issues. An old traditional church way of finding the truth is [i]in media est virtus. [/i]
You cannot know the middle if you don't know the parameters, then you are lost.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308600774' post='2256415']
Firstly how dare you call yourself Christian and equate being homosexual with murder or pedophilia. How dare you. That is not even a point you can argue. I hope you read up on your church teaching on the matter. It is exactly such language and thinking that drives people away and is completely unnecessary. If you had any knowledge of church doctrine on the matter and read your catechism you would know that having a priest offer a sacrifice for the struggles of his gay parishioners can in no way be detrimental to their faith or scandalous to them. So what we are to treat them like they and their problems don't exist? Maybe I could be as sarcastic as you and say you support apartheid. We do offer prayers and masses for women who struggle with abortion? Why not for people who struggle with same sex attraction?

Catechism 2333: [color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual [i]identity[/i].[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Catechism 2358: [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]How do you suggest they "unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross" present upon the altar? How does a Mass sound?[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Whoa. Hold up there, friend. I think you misunderstood me. I did not equate homosexuals with murder or pedophilia. I equated (acting) homosexuals with murder[b]ers[/b] and pedo[b]philes[/b]. Do we hate murders? Do we hate pedophiles? Or do we hate the sin and love the sinner? Homosexual activity is of the same gravity as murder and acts of pedophilia. My point is that we do not "celebrate" sinners who commit those sins. Do we respect their dignity? Do we love them? Yes and yes. But we do not celebrate them insofar as they are identified with their sin.

Here's what I said about offering a Mass for their intentions:

[i]
Now, say there was a support group at a certain parish or within a diocese for those Catholics who struggle with same sex attraction. And say this groups regularly. And has a chaplain. And at some point they come together as a group to attend private Mass, praying specifically for their intention (help with their particular struggle). That would be all good and fine. In fact, I think that would be great.[/i]

But a Mass [i]celebrating[/i] homosexuals is not okay.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308601369' post='2256422']
Gay and lesbianism is neutral and natural to those who have like all sin is. [/quote]
no, no, and no.

[TeresaBenedicta]

"Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil." CCC 2284

Scandal can be intended or unintended, and one can be culpable even for unintended scandal if it can be reasonably connected to the attitude or behavior in question.

This sort of public Mass "celebrating" gays and lesbians will cause scandal and that, at its root, is why it cannot be done. People WILL think that the Church is condoning homosexual behavior. And that is can be reasonably deduced from the situation.

Now, a private Mass, celebrated for the strength and conversion of those struggling with SSA would not be considered scandalous.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308601993' post='2256428']
Whoa. Hold up there, friend. I think you misunderstood me. I did not equate homosexuals with murder or pedophilia. I equated (acting) homosexuals with murder[b]ers[/b] and pedo[b]philes[/b]. Do we hate murders? Do we hate pedophiles? Or do we hate the sin and love the sinner? Homosexual activity is of the same gravity as murder and acts of pedophilia. My point is that we do not "celebrate" sinners who commit those sins. Do we respect their dignity? Do we love them? Yes and yes. But we do not celebrate them insofar as they are identified with their sin.

Here's what I said about offering a Mass for their intentions:

[i]
Now, say there was a support group at a certain parish or within a diocese for those Catholics who struggle with same sex attraction. And say this groups regularly. And has a chaplain. And at some point they come together as a group to attend private Mass, praying specifically for their intention (help with their particular struggle). That would be all good and fine. In fact, I think that would be great.[/i]

But a Mass [i]celebrating[/i] homosexuals is not okay.
[/quote]


Thanks for clarifying. Not sure I am on the same page that the act is as bad as murder and pedophilia seeing one is a complete destruction of another life and the other a taking advantage of a helpless young one as two misguided people agreeing to act upon their feelings of affection or attraction for each other especially if they are in a monogamous lifetime relationship. I understand that you mean in the moral law sense but even then the Church has teachings about culpability and other things as far as full knowledge and consent. ie is it a different situation for the homosexual person described above to engage in a homosexual act which to him/her might be natural rather than a straight person doing it for sh*ts and giggles ya know? No worries [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]

[katholikkid]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308602563' post='2256432']
"Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil." CCC 2284

Scandal can be intended or unintended, and one can be culpable even for unintended scandal if it can be reasonably connected to the attitude or behavior in question.

This sort of public Mass "celebrating" gays and lesbians will cause scandal and that, at its root, is why it cannot be done. People WILL think that the Church is condoning homosexual behavior. And that is can be reasonably deduced from the situation.

Now, a private Mass, celebrated for the strength and conversion of those struggling with SSA would not be considered scandalous.
[/quote]


Now were getting somewhere's and if a parish with such a large group were to schedule a mass for said group...

[katholikkid]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308602254' post='2256430']
no, no, and no.
[/quote]

Catechism buddy. Look it up. Lust is a sin. Straight/gay people lust. But to be straight is to be heterosexual to be gay is to be homosexual. To be both is human. 'Being' in the sense that you cannot choose to be that way meaning one cannot choose their attraction can not be a sin.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308602694' post='2256436']
Now were getting somewhere's and if a parish with such a large group were to schedule a mass for said group...
[/quote]

The line for communion would be really short?

Edited June 20, 2011 by Noel's angel

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308602886' post='2256438']
Catechism buddy. Look it up. Lust is a sin. Straight/gay people lust. But to be straight is to be heterosexual to be gay is to be homosexual. To be both is human. 'Being' in the sense that you cannot choose to be that way meaning one cannot choose their attraction can not be a sin.
[/quote]
are you really trying to say homosexualism is natural? Cause that's whatcha kinda said.

and you're telling me to flip open a catechism?

[katholikkid]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308603029' post='2256440']
are you really trying to say homosexualism is natural? Cause that's whatcha kinda said.

and you're telling me to flip open a catechism?
[/quote]

yes yes yes

"[font=arial, helvetica,]There seems to be no single cause of a homosexual orientation. A common opinion of experts is that there are multiple factors—genetic, hormonal, psychological—that may give rise to it. Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.[sup]1[/sup] "[/font]
[font=arial, helvetica,]
[/font]
[font=arial, helvetica,]--USCCB 'Always Our Children" -- [/font][url="http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml[/url]
[font=arial, helvetica,]
[/font]
[font=arial, helvetica,]The [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] states also: "This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most [persons with the homosexual inclination] a trial" (no. 2358).[/font]

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308602940' post='2256439']
The line for communion would be really short?
[/quote]


Well most parishes should be experiencing that anyway with artificial birth control users and divorcee's filling our pews. But I get your point. But who knows? Maybe the number of chaste homosexuals outnumbers the aforementioned groups. It would be cool to find out.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308602609' post='2256433']
Thanks for clarifying. Not sure I am on the same page that the act is as bad as murder and pedophilia seeing one is a complete destruction of another life and the other a taking advantage of a helpless young one as two misguided people agreeing to act upon their feelings of affection or attraction for each other especially if they are in a monogamous lifetime relationship. I understand that you mean in the moral law sense but even then the Church has teachings about culpability and other things as far as full knowledge and consent. ie is it a different situation for the homosexual person described above to engage in a homosexual act which to him/her might be natural rather than a straight person doing it for sh*ts and giggles ya know? No worries [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]
[/quote]

When talking about natural law and moral theology, we can only talk in the objective sense. Or about "the act itself". And if we're going to make guidelines and judgments, it is regarding the objective nature of the acts. Homosexual activity is grave matter and inherently a grave perversion of nature. As is murder. As is pedophilia. As is adultery. As is a straight couple having sex before marriage. Each of these acts are against nature and each of these acts separate the soul from God.

Are there circumstances that might alter culpability? Sure there are- and that goes for all of the aforementioned acts. But, frankly, when discussing these issues, all of that really doesn't matter. When it comes to talking with individuals, circumstances absolutely matter.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308602694' post='2256436']
Now were getting somewhere's and if a parish with such a large group were to schedule a mass for said group...
[/quote]

So long as it's done privately and does not substitute for a normally scheduled Mass.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308603498' post='2256444']
--USCCB 'Always Our Children" -- [url="http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/laity/always.shtml[/url]
[/quote]
the "Always Our Children" statement has rightly been questioned for its ambiguous statements about homosexuality.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308603647' post='2256446']
Well most parishes should be experiencing that anyway with artificial birth control users and divorcee's filling our pews. But I get your point. But who knows? Maybe the number of chaste homosexuals outnumbers the aforementioned groups. It would be cool to find out.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]
just an fyi, those who are divorced can receive the Eucharist, provided that they are in a state of grace. now, if they have gotten remarried without an annulment of their previous marriage, then they may not present themselves to receive the Eucharist.