Archdiocese Of Boston Open Mass To Be Held

[Nihil Obstat]

I don't think anybody here implied that the inclination towards same-sex attraction is in and of itself sinful.
However it is disordered, and acting on that disorder is sinful. To self-identify with that disorder betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of the perversion.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308596473' post='2256385']To self-identify with that disorder betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of the perversion.
[/quote]
Could you clarify what you mean by this?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308596649' post='2256386']
Could you clarify what you mean by this?
[/quote]
A person who says "I am homosexual" is misunderstanding both human nature and the nature of same-sex attraction. Apo explains this much better than I can with his more philosophical language.
Basically, human nature does not include homosexuality. A person cannot 'be' homosexual. They have inclinations towards that particular sin. It is not a part of their nature.
On the other aspect, to self-identify as homosexual shows that they don't really understand homosexuality as a disorder. This is sort of the other side of the coin with regards to human nature as above.

I'm really rushed so I'm not being as clear as I should. Basically:

To self-identify as homosexual shows a misunderstanding of human nature, of which same sex attraction is a disorder, and;
To self-identify as homosexual shows a misunderstanding of same-sex attraction, which is a disorder, but which now tends to be understood as simply an aspect of that person, like hair colour or skin tone. It is not comparable.

Again, sorry that this is rushed. I'm on the way out the door as we speak.

[katholikkid]

hey guys great thoughts. Just some wandering thoughts of mine:

I am glad within all posts there is a common distinction between lifestyle and inclination. Personally, I find nothing un-doctrinal about having a mass that celebrates gay and lesbian members of the flock. We offer masses for any countless issues facing us these days and it is appropriate to take worries or weaknesses (both personal and social) to our Lord in the Holy sacrificial meal of the Mass. The concern here is about being in a state of grace per lifestyle choice. I think why this is good is that it challenges us to take church teaching as a whole much more seriously. So lets be honest there may not be much discussion at a parish if a divorced person, artificial brith control users etc were to receive. Those things have been embedded in society and we treat them passively. That is why I posted earlier the NCR article that said: homosexuality, if an enemy of traditional marriage at all, should be the least of the churches worries when it comes to marriage for we have the aforementioned destroying much more than what might be less than 1 percent of the population. I think the attempt of this parish in Boston is to help us see that homosexuality exists, there are faithful Catholics who are open homosexuals, there is nothing wrong with identifying as such, and there are bigger fish to fry, let us show that gay/lesbian are just as needy of our Lord as any of us. And to prove it we are having a mass that is being offered for our Gay and Lesbian parishioners. Now back to building the kingdom.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308599088' post='2256396']
hey guys great thoughts. Just some wandering thoughts of mine:

I am glad within all posts there is a common distinction between lifestyle and inclination. Personally, I find nothing un-doctrinal about having a mass that celebrates gay and lesbian members of the flock. We offer masses for any countless issues facing us these days and it is appropriate to take worries or weaknesses (both personal and social) to our Lord in the Holy sacrificial meal of the Mass. The concern here is about being in a state of grace per lifestyle choice. I think why this is good is that it challenges us to take church teaching as a whole much more seriously. So lets be honest there may not be much discussion at a parish if a divorced person, artificial brith control users etc were to receive. Those things have been embedded in society and we treat them passively. That is why I posted earlier the NCR article that said: homosexuality, if an enemy of traditional marriage at all, should be the least of the churches worries when it comes to marriage for we have the aforementioned destroying much more than what might be less than 1 percent of the population. I think the attempt of this parish in Boston is to help us see that homosexuality exists, there are faithful Catholics who are open homosexuals, there is nothing wrong with identifying as such, and there are bigger fish to fry, let us show that gay/lesbian are just as needy of our Lord as any of us. And to prove it we are having a mass that is being offered for our Gay and Lesbian parishioners. Now back to building the kingdom.
[/quote]
I implore you to stop reading the NCR. It is not an orthodox publication and will not be useful to you in your continued formation as a Christian.

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308595551' post='2256375']
How many hearts have you changed with this approach?
[/quote]

At least three that I know of...

You have to remember, my writing style and my interpersonal style are not the same. I can't show inflection, concern, and empathy through a computer screen the same way I can in person. Also, when writing it is very easy tofilter out the emotion so that I can get my point across as judiciously as possible.

So, that being said, three that I know of....

Oh, I've failed too, with two that I know of...one was a religious brother and the other a priest. No lie.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Cam42

[katholikkid]

I don't stereotype. I read it all from the Register to the Reporter to the Visitor to the Spectator to the Tablet. If I find a good article that is well written I will engage it. I do not let my judgement on a well-authored piece of truthful writing be dictated by how I feel something is being represented. Sometimes it causes me to swallow a bitter pill but pathos mathos. Objectivity is a good thing to have my friend.

[Cam42]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308599088' post='2256396']
hey guys great thoughts. Just some wandering thoughts of mine:

I am glad within all posts there is a common distinction between lifestyle and inclination. Personally, I find nothing un-doctrinal about having a mass that celebrates gay and lesbian members of the flock. We offer masses for any countless issues facing us these days and it is appropriate to take worries or weaknesses (both personal and social) to our Lord in the Holy sacrificial meal of the Mass.

[/quote]

I have to disagree with you. We should not be celebrating the gay and lesbian members of the flock. That is at direct odds with 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Yes, Masses are offered for countless issues, but we don't offer them, the priest does. The issues that the Masses are aimed at are toward a moral good, gay and lesbianism are not morally good and a Mass celebrated with that as the end is sacrilegious. It is more appropriate for those who have SSA to bring their troubles to God, lay them on the altar, just like the rest of us and offer their prayers of worship just like the rest of us. If they are Catholic, they are obliged to do that. If they are Catholic, they are obliged also, to seek out the Sacrament of Penance and make right that which they have done wrong...if they are acting upon their SSA, in any form, then they are in need of repentance...but under no circumstances can we, as Catholics, justify assisting at a Mass where SSA is the focus....

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308599088' post='2256396']
hey guys great thoughts. Just some wandering thoughts of mine:

I am glad within all posts there is a common distinction between lifestyle and inclination. Personally, I find nothing un-doctrinal about having a mass that celebrates gay and lesbian members of the flock. We offer masses for any countless issues facing us these days and it is appropriate to take worries or weaknesses (both personal and social) to our Lord in the Holy sacrificial meal of the Mass. The concern here is about being in a state of grace per lifestyle choice. I think why this is good is that it challenges us to take church teaching as a whole much more seriously. So lets be honest there may not be much discussion at a parish if a divorced person, artificial brith control users etc were to receive. Those things have been embedded in society and we treat them passively. That is why I posted earlier the NCR article that said: homosexuality, if an enemy of traditional marriage at all, should be the least of the churches worries when it comes to marriage for we have the aforementioned destroying much more than what might be less than 1 percent of the population. I think the attempt of this parish in Boston is to help us see that homosexuality exists, there are faithful Catholics who are open homosexuals, there is nothing wrong with identifying as such, and there are bigger fish to fry, let us show that gay/lesbian are just as needy of our Lord as any of us. And to prove it we are having a mass that is being offered for our Gay and Lesbian parishioners. Now back to building the kingdom.
[/quote]

On the contrary... having a Mass that "celebrates" gay and lesbian members is extremely detrimental and scandalous. Do we "celebrate" murderers? Pedophiles? Thieves? No. We don't.

Now, say there was a support group at a certain parish or within a diocese for those Catholics who struggle with same sex attraction. And say this groups regularly. And has a chaplain. And at some point they come together as a group to attend private Mass, praying specifically for their intention (help with their particular struggle). That would be all good and fine. In fact, I think that would be great.

But a Mass to celebrate gays and lesbians? No. You can't separate that from condoning or supporting that lifestyle.

[Cam42]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308600178' post='2256409']
On the contrary... having a Mass that "celebrates" gay and lesbian members is extremely detrimental and scandalous. Do we "celebrate" murderers? Pedophiles? Thieves? No. We don't.

Now, say there was a support group at a certain parish or within a diocese for those Catholics who struggle with same sex attraction. And say this groups regularly. And has a chaplain. And at some point they come together as a group to attend private Mass, praying specifically for their intention (help with their particular struggle). That would be all good and fine. In fact, I think that would be great.

But a Mass to celebrate gays and lesbians? No. You can't separate that from condoning or supporting that lifestyle.
[/quote]

That group exists, it's called COURAGE. But you won't find Masses at COURAGE celebrating SSA. To the contrary, it deals with how to adapt one's lifestyle to be chaste while dealing with SSA. Which is the proper way to live.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308599655' post='2256403']
At least three that I know of...

You have to remember, my writing style and my interpersonal style are not the same. I can't show inflection, concern, and empathy through a computer screen the same way I can in person. Also, when writing it is very easy tofilter out the emotion so that I can get my point across as judiciously as possible.

So, that being said, three that I know of....

Oh, I've failed too, with two that I know of...one was a religious brother and the other a priest. No lie.
[/quote]
Well that's three more than I have, so I guess there must be something to your method.

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308600110' post='2256407']Objectivity is a good thing to have my friend.
[/quote]
And the NCR is an objectively heterodox/heretical publication.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308600178' post='2256409']
On the contrary... having a Mass that "celebrates" gay and lesbian members is extremely detrimental and scandalous. Do we "celebrate" murderers? Pedophiles? Thieves? No. We don't.

Now, say there was a support group at a certain parish or within a diocese for those Catholics who struggle with same sex attraction. And say this groups regularly. And has a chaplain. And at some point they come together as a group to attend private Mass, praying specifically for their intention (help with their particular struggle). That would be all good and fine. In fact, I think that would be great.

But a Mass to celebrate gays and lesbians? No. You can't separate that from condoning or supporting that lifestyle.
[/quote]

Firstly how dare you call yourself Christian and equate being homosexual with murder or pedophilia. How dare you. That is not even a point you can argue. I hope you read up on your church teaching on the matter. It is exactly such language and thinking that drives people away and is completely unnecessary. If you had any knowledge of church doctrine on the matter and read your catechism you would know that having a priest offer a sacrifice for the struggles of his gay parishioners can in no way be detrimental to their faith or scandalous to them. So what we are to treat them like they and their problems don't exist? Maybe I could be as sarcastic as you and say you support apartheid. We do offer prayers and masses for women who struggle with abortion? Why not for people who struggle with same sex attraction?

Catechism 2333: [color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual [i]identity[/i].[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Catechism 2358: [/size][/font][/color][color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#202020"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]How do you suggest they "unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross" present upon the altar? How does a Mass sound?[/size][/font][/color]

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[katholikkid]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308600155' post='2256408']
I have to disagree with you. We should not be celebrating the gay and lesbian members of the flock. That is at direct odds with 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Yes, Masses are offered for countless issues, but we don't offer them, the priest does. The issues that the Masses are aimed at are toward a moral good, gay and lesbianism are not morally good and a Mass celebrated with that as the end is sacrilegious. It is more appropriate for those who have SSA to bring their troubles to God, lay them on the altar, just like the rest of us and offer their prayers of worship just like the rest of us. If they are Catholic, they are obliged to do that. If they are Catholic, they are obliged also, to seek out the Sacrament of Penance and make right that which they have done wrong...if they are acting upon their SSA, in any form, then they are in need of repentance...but under no circumstances can we, as Catholics, justify assisting at a Mass where SSA is the focus....
[/quote]

Gay and lesbianism is neutral and natural to those who have like all sin is. It is the acting out of sin that is wrong. So masses are offered all the time for specific people or situations. Why not this one? What do you find so abhorrent about this struggle that chaste faithful homosexual people have that they cannot have it offered? I don't understand this 'let's not give them the time of day' thing. It is so un-Christian. It's not like when we offer mass for women considering abortion we are giving a thumbs up to their decisions because who knows she may consider to have it done. Offering mass for women considering abortion is not giving them a license to abort but rather a prayer that they make the right choice though many struggles lay before them. The cross is for the weary and helpless who need Christ. Why is this community's struggles not allowed recognition? No prayer in spirit and truth can be evil or detrimental.

Edited June 20, 2011 by katholikkid

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308600389' post='2256412']
Well that's three more than I have, so I guess there must be something to your method.

[/quote]

The two that I was not successful with were very painful, because both of them I considered good friends at one point.

As for the method, I'm simply doing what the Church asks, nothing more, nothing less. I live my life and I provide an example as to how to live a chaste life in the single life. I've not always been good with that, but I've learned and I can draw upon that failure in my life to help those with SSA deal with being single and chaste. The rules are exactly the same, the object is all that is different. And once they understand that, then we start talking about the object and the disorder in that. This is never a quick fix and it takes a lot of time, but it can be done....They may still have SSA, but they are able to cope and they are able to accept their life, as defined by being Catholic.

It makes it easier, because like them I am single and I have no plans to date or to marry, so that talking point is very easy to empathize with. The hard part for me is wrapping my head around the disorder, but through prayer and listening, I am able to help in some cases. In others, not so much.

BTW, the priest is no longer active in the priesthood and neither is the religious. I pray for both daily...especially the priest, because he will be judged that way at his particular judgment when he passes...

Edited June 20, 2011 by Cam42

[Papist]

[font="Tahoma"][size="3"][size="2"][font="Arial"][quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1308594035' post='2256364'][/font]
[font="Arial"]Yes, I agree. I find it a real shame that these people do not feel welcome at 'normal' Masses and that a special one is considered necessary.[/font]
[font="Arial"][/quote][/font]
[font="Arial"]What prevents "these people" from attending " 'normal' " mass?[/font]

[font="Arial"][quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1308594035' post='2256364'][/font]
[font="Arial"]I don't believe that homosexual tendencies are things that people choose to have, nor should they be made to feel guilty for feeling as they do. I think the Church and its members need to welcome everyone regardless of their sexuality or anything else that makes them 'undesirable' (for want of a better word) and then provide them with catechisis given with kindness and compassion, so that they come to realise that their behaviours are not appropriate for Christians and give them up. We are all sinners, just most of us keep our sins hidden rather than being honest and open about them.[/font]
[font="Arial"][/quote][/font]
[font="Arial"]This line of thinking is at the root of the problem. It is counterfeit compassion to tell people that suffer from SSA all the garbage that leads them to believe their identity is defined by their sexuality and that God made them that way. When they believe that they become at odds with the Church, which leads to them to believe they are unwelcome in the Church.[/font]

[font="Arial"]As far as compassion, the Church and bishops are the only ones showing real love to people with SSA. They are trying to save their souls, not trying to make them feel good and 'accepted'.[/font]

[font="Arial"][quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1308594035' post='2256364'][/font]
[font="Arial"]I am confident that Jesus would have gone to find them, spoken to them, shared a meal with them etc, and as we should always strive to be more like Him we should accept everyone, whatever their state.[/font]
[font="Arial"][/quote][/font]
[font="Arial"]Would Jesus not have taught them the truth and ask them to go and sin no more? The Church should[and does] accept every person, but not immoral behavior. In turn, every person must accept the teachings of the Church on faith and morals. The truth should never be veiled in order to make a group feel welcome or accepted. [/font][/size][/size][/font]

Edited June 20, 2011 by Papist