Atheism=Nihilism?

[Socrates]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1308650244' post='2256715']
Sorry to go off topic, but I am still a bit baffled as to why Catholics don't think an all male priesthood is not a form of sexism.

Here is a definition from Wikipedia [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism"]Sexism - Wikipedia[/url]
"[b]Sexism[/b], also known as [b]gender discrimination[/b] or [b]sex discrimination[/b], is the application of the belief or attitude that there are characteristics implicit to one's gender that indirectly affect one's abilities in unrelated areas"

So doesn't the adherance of a belief that god doesn't want females to be ordained fit this description? Here we have a belief that the characteristics implicit to females indirectly affect their abilities to perform the role of a preist.

I guess it comes down to thinking whether the role of a preist is related or unrelated to the characteristics implicit to females. I don't know what those characteristics would be and why they would impact performance within the role.
[/quote]
Again, if the priesthood is nothing but nonsensical superstitious hocus-pocus (the only consistent position an atheist could take on it), why should you care if females are excluded from it?

[Mr.Cat]

Stevil didn't suggest he cared what the practices of Catholicism are, he is concerned that Catholics are denying what seems apparent because its inconvenient. Not that I would expect someone like socrates to understand.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[stevil]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1308693750' post='2256983']
If you want to blame Christianity or religion for higher crime rates[/quote]
Certainly not the point I was making. Atheists are generally decent people and generally act sociably and compassionately during our lives, it seems that we do care about our lives and others lives and aren't nonchalant about our existence or existence in general as nihilism might suggest.

[Aragonn]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308438827' post='2255735']
No, atheism does not imply nihilism. In fact, most atheists/agnostics I know are [b]not[/b] nihilists. "[i]Divine Command[/i]" in my personal opinion is a poor, if not faulty, ethical model.
[/quote]


Just because a lot of atheists are not nihilists does not mean that the logical consequences of atheism are not nihilism. It is. There's no way around that. The most intelligent atheists embraced this (like Nietzsche) while your garden-variety atheist of 2011 lack a rudimentary understanding of philosophy and fail to make the connection (like Dawkins). Here's why: purpose requires intentionality. If the world began intentionally (as theists believe) then there is the possiblity of a purpose to our existence (I say possibility because deists would argue otherwise). If, however, there is no intentionality behind the existence of our universe (as atheists believe) then there cannot possibly be any greater meaning.

Moral relativism is also a logical consequence of atheism. Stevil stated that atheists don't believe in moral objectivity but "that doesn't mean they don't try to be good people". Do I even need to bother pointing out the contradiction in that statement? "Good" doesn't really exist, but it's still something that we're aiming for? When "the good" has no basis in objective reality then its reduced down to one's own personal preferences. It becomes an empty word signifying whatever we find most pleasing or acceptable. Jeffrey Dahmer could describe himself as a good person under those circumstances.

None of these are, in and of themselves, arguments against atheism. Just because something is ugly doesn't make it false. It does however highlight two very important points:

1. Most atheists hold inconsistent views
2. Atheism is unable to account for humanity's search for transcendence or the existence of conscience. If atheism is correct then man is an inherently irrational animal because he desires something that does not exist and lives his life by rules that have no basis in reality.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Aragonn

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309350459' post='2260194']
Moral relativism is also a logical consequence of atheism. Stevil stated that atheists don't believe in moral objectivity but "that doesn't mean they don't try to be good people". Do I even need to bother pointing out the contradiction in that statement? "Good" doesn't really exist, but it's still something that we're aiming for? When "the good" has no basis in objective reality then its reduced down to one's own personal preferences. It becomes an empty word signifying whatever we find most pleasing or acceptable. Jeffrey Dahmer could describe himself as a good person under those circumstances.[/quote]

A question: what exaclty do you see as "good"? The god of the bible?

[quote]2. Atheism is unable to account for humanity's search for transcendence or the existence of conscience. If atheism is correct then man is an inherently irrational animal because he desires something that does not exist and lives his life by rules that have no basis in reality.
[/quote]

Everyday I draw closer to the conclusion that man [i]is [/i]an inherently irrational animal and when religion becomes a mess between what mankind expects the universe to be and what it actually looks like, it shows.

[Aragonn]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1309388612' post='2260499']
A question: what exaclty do you see as "good"? The god of the bible?
[/quote]

Yes. Although you may want to study biblical hermeneutics before you start talking about how much of a bully God is in the Old Testament (if that's what's coming next).

God's most complete revelation of Himself is given to humanity in the person of Jesus Christ.



[quote]
Everyday I draw closer to the conclusion that man [i]is [/i]an inherently irrational animal and when religion becomes a mess between what mankind expects the universe to be and what it actually looks like, it shows.
[/quote]

If man is an inherently irrational animal then you have no reason to believe that your atheism is correct or correlates to the reality of our situation.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Aragonn

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309394851' post='2260555']
Yes. Although you may want to study biblical hermeneutics before you start talking about how much of a bully God is in the Old Testament (if that's what's coming next).

God's most complete revelation of Himself is given to humanity in the person of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

I see Jesus as a radical, not a revelation of god or bringer of god's message.

Why is good, good? If it objectively exists, then there should be no problem describing it.


[quote]If man is an inherently irrational animal then you have no reason to believe that your atheism is correct or correlates to the reality of our situation.[/quote]

Something tells me that you'd say the same if you were an atheist and I were a theist. What's rational about religion?

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309350459' post='2260194']
Here's why: purpose requires intentionality. If the world began intentionally (as theists believe) then there is the possiblity of a purpose to our existence (I say possibility because deists would argue otherwise). If, however, there is no intentionality behind the existence of our universe (as atheists believe) then there cannot possibly be any greater meaning.[/quote] I'd rather have a life devoid of purpose than a life given a purpose by someone else. But that's just me. I happen to think that a universe with God at its head is just as nihilistic as a universe without a God.

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309350459' post='2260194']
1. Most atheists hold inconsistent views[/quote] Inconsistent with...?

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1309594073' post='2262036']I'd rather have a life devoid of purpose than a life given a purpose by someone else. But that's just me. I happen to think that a universe with God at its head is just as nihilistic as a universe without a God[/quote]

An interesting thought, and I agree.

[Aragonn]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1309399089' post='2260589']
I see Jesus as a radical, not a revelation of god or bringer of god's message.
[/quote]

Pity that that's not how any of the people that knew him or wrote about his life saw him

[quote]
Why is good, good? If it objectively exists, then there should be no problem describing it.
[/quote]

Good is good because it comes from and leads us back to our Creator, the ultimate source of all Goodness. Any action that brings us closer to love of God and neighbour is good, any that takes us further away is evil, and any that makes no difference one way or the other is morally neutral.

[quote]
Something tells me that you'd say the same if you were an atheist and I were a theist.
[/quote]

I think you missed my point. You said that you believe humans are inherently irrational animals. If that is the case then there's no reason to believe that any of your opinions or thoughts (assuming you're a human, right?) have any correlation to reality at all. You would have no way of knowing anything to be true or false at all. This would include your atheism.

I don't believe that humans are inherently irrational, in fact I believe the exact opposite, and therefor I do not have to worry about that particular epistemological question.


[quote]
What's rational about religion?
[/quote]

Because man has a Creator and religion is the natural response to that Creator.

Tell me what you think is irrational about religion (Catholicism in particular) and I'll tell you why I think it's rational.

[Aragonn]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1309594073' post='2262036']
I'd rather have a life devoid of purpose than a life given a purpose by someone else. But that's just me.
[/quote]

I can get that. Nihilism is pretty attractive to me as well. I don't find it scary or depressing. The thing is that just because you would rather have a life without a Creator doesn't mean that you do. Atheistic nihilism fails to explain or satiate the human desire for transcendence, virtue, and moral principles.

[quote]
I happen to think that a universe with God at its head is just as nihilistic as a universe without a God.
[/quote]

That doesn't make sense. Why do you think this?

[quote]
Inconsistent with...?
[/quote]

Acting in a moral way, describing certain actions as "good" and "bad" etc. I already explained this:

[i]"Moral relativism is also a logical consequence of atheism. Stevil stated that atheists don't believe in moral objectivity but "that doesn't mean they don't try to be good people". Do I even need to bother pointing out the contradiction in that statement? "Good" doesn't really exist, but it's still something that we're aiming for? When "the good" has no basis in objective reality then its reduced down to one's own personal preferences. It becomes an empty word signifying whatever we find most pleasing or acceptable. Jeffrey Dahmer could describe himself as a good person under those circumstances."
[/i]
Stevil's comment that atheists can still "strive to be good people" is a perfect example of this,

Edited July 3, 2011 by Aragonn

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309661892' post='2262415']Pity that that's not how any of the people that knew him or wrote about his life saw him [/quote]





[quote]Good is good because it comes from and leads us back to our Creator, the ultimate source of all Goodness. Any action that brings us closer to love of God and neighbour is good, any that takes us further away is evil, and any that makes no difference one way or the other is morally neutral. [/quote]

That still doesn't answer why good is good. Is there an intrinsic goodness to good or is it good because some moral law at a given time says that it's good?

[quote]I think you missed my point. You said that you believe humans are inherently irrational animals. If that is the case then there's no reason to believe that any of your opinions or thoughts (assuming you're a human, right?) have any correlation to reality at all. You would have no way of knowing anything to be true or false at all. This would include your atheism.

I don't believe that humans are inherently irrational, in fact I believe the exact opposite, and therefor I do not have to worry about that particular epistemological question.[/quote]

People try to apply consistent meaning to things and for that to work there is a certain logical chain to thoughts and beliefs (saying for instance "pepsi is good therefore Mickey Mouse exists" is meaningless), but the leap of faith that is "there is something rather than nothing therefore it was consciously created" is not logically rational.

I think any topic that has to do with god or gods is a topic that we can't get very far due to our limitness and fallibility.

[quote]Because man has a Creator and religion is the natural response to that Creator.[/quote]

Because man looks like a created sophisticated machine/invention?

[quote]Tell me what you think is irrational about religion (Catholicism in particular) and I'll tell you why I think it's rational.[/quote]

I think practically every aspect of a belief in a personal god (one that's outside of the mind) to be irrational.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309662154' post='2262418']
Stevil's comment that atheists can still "strive to be good people" is a perfect example of this,
[/quote]
It's amazing to me the amount of attacks on this site that are made against a generalised and incorrect view of Atheists that some people within the Phatmass community have.
The attacks are relentless and disengenuous. The people making the attacks are unwilling to listen to any of the Atheists providing clarification. It seems to me that these people think they know it all.

The word "good" is not owned by Christians and was not defined by the Christian god.
Yes, it is hard to pin down what is good, and many people do what others would consider bad things, on their road to good intentions.
If you contend that good means law abiding, then going by the study based on religious afilliation of prisoners in America then it is reasonable to conclude that Athiests adhere to good better than non Atheists, of every denomination and religion.
If you content that good means being humanistic, treating others as equals and showing respect and love regardless of peoples beliefs, gender, sexual orientation then again the Atheists win out hands down.

If you contend that good means following the Catholic Church's stance, then Atheists could be seen as not being as good as Catholics. But then again these goals are not what most Atheists would consider good.

When I refer to good, I loosly mean being law abiding and humanistic, which is what I would have told you if you had decided to ask rather than make a strawman example of my statement. (this I find very dishonest and not good)

Edited July 3, 2011 by stevil

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Aragonn' timestamp='1309662154' post='2262418']
That doesn't make sense. Why do you think this?[/quote] If God does have a meaning in mind for us, then I consider that God's subjective meaning, not ours. To me, objective meaning is a nonsensical term.

[stevil]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1309677055' post='2262536']
If God does have a meaning in mind for us, then I consider that God's subjective meaning, not ours. To me, objective meaning is a nonsensical term.
[/quote]
Kia ora bro,
You from Aotearoa?