faithcecelia Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I was brought up with the idea that its very hard for people who are starving, freezing cold and dirty to grasp the idea that God loves them enough to die for them. So feed them, warm them and wash them and [i]then [/i]preach to them. I don't think this is too bad a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308357788' post='2255398'] We cannot look at salvation as a thing we have that we can give to others. Just because your Catholic does not mean you have salvation it means you are striving daily to work out your salvation with fear and trembling within the Church of Christ to quote Saint Paul {Phil 2:12}. So charity and/or fighting for the opressed is not an individually efficacious action. Think of sin. It harms you and the community which is why we believe in confessing it to the preist who acts 'in persona ecclesiae' and 'in persona christi' in the sacrament of reconciliation. the same is true of charity it not only works towards your own salvation and unity with God {which is salvation ultimately} it has an effect on those recieveing it. If we have a scriptual and traditional model for what salvation on earth looks like we should strive for it. Scripture is overflowing with visions of what the kingdom looks like and who will be in it and it is the JUST man is spoken of frequently in the old testament as one who knows God and understands the implications of knowing God. To work out our salvation we must conquer sin and let Christ reign. There is such a thing as structual sin that presents itself in economic and political systems that oppress the helpless and destroy life. Is it not our responsibility to try to overcome it with the Gospel message? Again not making a binary out of soul and body we must start with knowing God in Jesus through the Eucharist and realising that if Jesus said what he meant in the Gospel we cannot place a greater or lesser value on the spiritual rather than the physical. Christ came to save people. As Roman Catholics we believe in a bodily resurrection not some Protestant idea of heaven where our souls float around and we sip cappuccino's with eleanor roosevelt. So the idea that only souls go to heaven is a misguided view. If the Church took that mode of operation it would not explain the great social justice tradition that lives on in various religious orders and communities. Mother Theresa for example did not solely go around to the helpless of Calcutta and preach to them as they died in anguish. She took them, washed them, fed them, and literally WORKED out her salvation as every great saint of our Church has and will. She also was not a non-profit organization for the ill. She let them know her motivation for acting the way she did. She was motivated by a great love that she found expressed in the Eucharist and because she understood the implications of that she was able to see Christ's broken body not only in the host but all around in the leprosy stained suffering abandoned people in her life. ADMG. [/quote] Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308347913' post='2255335'] [font="Arial"]We see in these passages and numerable others the equating of which I earlier spoke. We see physical and internal manifestations of the effect of Jesus being the Son of God. The result of people accepting Jesus to be who is says he is is salvation and Christ himself shows us what salvation looks like. Now equal does not mean interchangeable so no well-intentioned Christian should solely focus on the body or only the soul. That would not be in imitation of Christ in any way. Catholic Social Teaching is in no way secondary to the Gospel but is just as true and fundamental as Jesus being the Son of God. We cannot separate the spiritual and physical. The tradition preaches this most strongly in the Eucharist it is not Christ's spirit but his body and soul on the altar. [/font] [/quote] The salvation of souls is more important than temporal problems. This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved. Earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's heavenly kingdom. That doesn't mean that social/temporal improvements to society based on the Gospel aren't vital, nor does it mean the Gospel should not effect positively our society it can, and it should. But the salvation of souls is paramount to social justice. Edited June 18, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308361975' post='2255424'] The salvation of souls is more important than temporal problems. This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved. Earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's heavenly kingdom. That doesn't mean that social/temporal improvements to society based on the Gospel aren't vital, nor does it mean the Gospel should not effect positively our society it can, and it should. But the salvation of souls is paramount to social justice. [/quote] I don't see how that can be the case. How can you love your sisters and brothers if you're busy saving their souls. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EegRh8Z4H-o[/media] I love you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308361975' post='2255424'] The salvation of souls is more important than temporal problems. This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved. [/quote] Yet it is still Good, despite that. [quote] Earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's heavenly kingdom. That doesn't mean that social/temporal improvements to society based on the Gospel aren't vital, nor does it mean the Gospel should not effect positively our society it can, and it should. But the salvation of souls is paramount to social justice. [/quote] true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308362354' post='2255427'] Yet it is still Good, despite that.[/quote] What is good the world? If you mean the earth I agree. But '[u]the[/u] world' means something different. [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308362354' post='2255427']true. [/quote] Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308362284' post='2255426'] I don't see how that can be the case. How can you love your sisters and brothers if you're busy saving their souls. I love you. [/quote] Those lovey dovey Who's down in Whoville have finally gotten to you haven't they... Sadz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308362469' post='2255428'] What is good the world? If you mean the earth I agree. But '[u]the[/u] world' means something different. [/quote] Clarify '[u]the[/u] world', by what you are trying to say here. [quote] Cool. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1308357788' post='2255398'] If the Church took that mode of operation it would not explain the great social justice tradition that lives on in various religious orders and communities. Mother Theresa for example did not solely go around to the helpless of Calcutta and preach to them as they died in anguish. She took them, washed them, fed them, and literally WORKED out her salvation as every great saint of our Church has and will. She also was not a non-profit organization for the ill. She let them know her motivation for acting the way she did. She was motivated by a great love that she found expressed in the Eucharist and because she understood the implications of that she was able to see Christ's broken body not only in the host but all around in the leprosy stained suffering abandoned people in her life. ADMG. [/quote] Bl. Teresa of Calcutta also prayed at least an hour a day in front of the Eucharist, before she did any ministering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308367679' post='2255460'] Clarify '[u]the[/u] world', by what you are trying to say here. [/quote] [i]The world[/i] of sin, [i]the world [/i]that is in darkness[i], [/i][i]the world [/i]that is darkness[i], [/i][i]the world[/i] that does not know the light[i], [/i][i]the world[/i] that opposes Christ and His Church,[i] the world[/i] of false religions, [i]the world [/i]of vanity, [i]the world [/i]of the flesh[i],[/i] which prince is the Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308371428' post='2255472'] [i]The world[/i] of sin, [i]the world [/i]that is in darkness[i], [/i][i]the world [/i]that is darkness[i], [/i][i]the world[/i] that does not know the light[i], [/i][i]the world[/i] that opposes Christ and His Church,[i] the world[/i] of false religions, [i]the world [/i]of vanity, [i]the world [/i]of the flesh[i],[/i] which prince is the Devil. [/quote] Sin, would have simply sufficed, because it is only through sin that anything becomes corrupted to begin with. Thanks for the explanation though. Edited June 18, 2011 by ThePenciledOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308372850' post='2255473'] Sin, would have simply sufficed, because it is only through sin that anything becomes corrupted to begin with. Thanks for the explanation though. [/quote] No problem but simply sin wouldn't have explained it fully. Sin is an act by man, or demons, [i]the world[/i] is the culmination of of evil men who's master is the Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katholikkid Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308361975' post='2255424'] The salvation of souls is more important than temporal problems. This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved. Earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's heavenly kingdom. That doesn't mean that social/temporal improvements to society based on the Gospel aren't vital, nor does it mean the Gospel should not effect positively our society it can, and it should. But the salvation of souls is paramount to social justice. [/quote] "This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved." The community at Thessaloniki thought this way also so much in fact they discontinued their christian living since what they were doing was useless in their minds. The world is fallen and the day of the Lord will renewal all things so why bother they thought. Saint Paul responded: [color="#800080"]"[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=1#x"][1][/url] Butof the times and moments, brethren, you need not, that we should write to you; [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=2#x"][2][/url] For yourselves know perfectly, thatthe day of the Lord shall so come, as a thief in the night. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=3#x"][3][/url] For when they shall say, peace andsecurity; then shall sudden destruction come upon them, as the pains upon herthat is with child, and they shall not escape. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=4#x"][4][/url] But you, brethren, are not indarkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=5#x"][5][/url] For all you are the children of light,and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.[/color][color="#800080"][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=6#x"][6][/url] Therefore, let us not sleep, as othersdo; but let us watch, and be sober. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=7#x"][7][/url] For they that sleep, sleep in thenight; and they that are drunk, are drunk in the night. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=8#x"][8][/url] But let us, who are of the day, besober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet thehope of salvation. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=9#x"][9][/url] For God hath not appointed us untowrath, but unto the purchasing of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=10#x"][10][/url] Who died for us; that, whether wewatch or sleep, we may live together with him.[/color] [color="#800080"][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=11#x"][11][/url] For which cause comfort one another;and edify one another, as you also do. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=12#x"][12][/url] And we beseech you, brethren, to knowthem who[/color][color=black] [/color][b][i][u][font=Verdana, sans-serif][color="#ff0000"]labour[/color][/font][color=black] [/color][/u][/i][/b][color=black]a[/color][color="#800080"]mong you,and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you:[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=13#x"][13][/url] That you[/color][color=black] [/color][b][i][u][font=Verdana, sans-serif][color="#ff0000"]esteem them more abundantly in charity[/color][/font][/u][/i][/b][color=black], [/color][color="#800080"]for their work's sake. Have peace with them. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=14#x"][14][/url]And[/color][color=black] [/color][color="#800080"]we beseech you,brethren, rebuke theunquiet, [/color][color="#ff0000"][font=Verdana, sans-serif][u]comfort the feeble minded, support the weak, be patient towardsall men.[/u][b][i][u] [/u][/i][/b][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=5&l=15#x"][15][/url][b][i][u] [/u][/i][/b][/font][/color][u][color="#ff0000"]See that none render evil for evil toany man; but ever follow that which is good towards each other, and towards allmen[/color]."[/u][i] [/i][u]--II [/u][font="Verdana, sans-serif"]Thessalonians 5:1-15 doauy rheims[/font] [font=Verdana, sans-serif] [/font] [font=Verdana, sans-serif]Now to address the point that "[/font]the salvation of souls is paramount to social justice." because "This world until the return of Christ is fallen and cannot be saved." We see in this passage that Saint Paul acknowledges the all encompassing effect of the return of Christ which is the day of the Lord. But no where does he mention a superiority of the soul over the body because of it. Rather BECAUSE of Christ's immanent return NOT IN SPITE OF he beseeches the Church to know those who LABOR and ESTEEM THEM "~MORE~" ABUNDANTLY how? IN CHARITY he then goes to list SOCIAL and INTERIOR actions to be practiced because Christ will return. The most powerful part of the passage is that last part and I feel contends most with your statement that "the salvation of souls if paramount to social justice" for what do the ending clauses iterate? SEE THAT NONE RENDER EVIL FOR EVIL TO *~ANY~* MAN {[size="4"][font="Impact"]that means being just[/font][/size]} BUT EVER FOLLOW THAT WHICH IS GOOD TOWARDS EACH OTHER, AND TOWARDS ALL MEN aka [font="Impact"][size="4"]SOCIETY[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]So the implication of Christ's return should be an overabundant active social justice Church that "prays without ceasing" as the next verse {16} says. Once again Physical and Spiritual are NOT a binary and to create a binary out of them is un-scriptual and not part of the tradition. Rather there is an equal treatment of them when it comes to salvation and in this case when it comes to what will be most important on the final day.[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]Thanks for bringing up your point. AMDG.[/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katholikkid Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308368604' post='2255465'] Bl. Teresa of Calcutta also prayed at least an hour a day in front of the Eucharist, before she did any ministering. [/quote] Great point. One of my most powerful experiences was reading the letters from a missionary nun in Peru. She wrote how she struggled with the idea of Exposition and how it was not a great devotion for her because of her lack of understanding or faith. She spent much time in front of our Lord pleading to understand him in this way and left r un-answered and distraught. She then went to her work which was to bathe, feed, and care for severely paralyzed abandoned children whom she loved deeply. After the feeding and washing the children slept. She sat there contemplating her suffering loved ones. Because of their handicaps they could not articulate their bodily pain from their crippled hunched backs and arthritic joints. She thought about them being abandoned by their families because all they could do was lie their dormant and useless only good for looking at. At that moment Christ enlightened her heart and she realized that some may find adoration foolish for all you do is sit there and think about something that to the world is useless and inactive much like these children. Adoration she realized was not an end to itself for herself but rather a time and prayer used to give value or Christo-centric meaning to her work as a Catholic. Mother Theresa knew Christ in the Eucharist and thus she knew him in the streets and she loved the homeless, abandoned just as much as she loved Christ. This is the beauty of tradition and Eucharist to know God through the Eucharist, through the Church, and by trying our best to share with those who need it most the great compassion and love that is bestowed upon us every time we respond 'Amen' to 'The body of Christ' and then unite ourselves to Christ intimately to go off be Christ to others. AMDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Basically, the only legitimate Catholic perspective on the matter is this: The 'social justice ministry' in its legitimate forms is [u]required[/u], but the prayerful/salvific/[i]spiritual[/i] aspect [u]must[/u] come first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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