Question For The Men...

[add]

clothes don't make the woman
if you ask me what gets my juices flowing it would have to be "her eyes", [u]eyes are a window to your soul [/u]

[Cherie]

I do prefer skirts, but I don't think it's [i]morally wrong[/i] for women to wear pant.s. (Especially for me because, while late in pregnancy and early postpartum, a lot of times that's the only thing I [i]could[/i] wear.) The pant.s made for women nowadays are [i]feminine. [/i]Some are immodest, to me - especially the extremely tight ones, and I [i]don't[/i] think it's a good idea for [i]anyone[/i] to wear leggings (c'mon, that's not even flattering for very skinny women!) But honestly, there are lots of skirts that are immodest, too. I would not consider [i]all pant.s[/i] immodest, nor would I consider all[i] [/i]skirts [i]modest. [/i]Yes, skirts are more inherently feminine, and that's why I like to wear them.

I think the point is, much like Totus Tuus said, that the legalistic view of modesty can become dangerous. Either you'll become overly scrupulous, or throw the baby out with the bath water and wear whatever you want regardless of any kind of standard. God made women to be [i]beautiful[/i]. Isn't that amesome? God is so good! And we're not supposed to hide that (e.g. like Muslims do), we're supposed to show it forth gracefully. I think some people's knee-jerk reaction to the vast amount of [i]immodesty[/i] in the world today by wearing extremely legalistic and unflattering clothing (bordering on the Amish, sometimes ... !) does an injustice to the idea of modesty in general, and an injustice to women, period. To me, modesty = dignity. Just as the Muslim woman's burqa demonstrates a lack of dignity, so does the low-cut, tight-clothes-wearing, bikini-clad attire of most women in modern society. We're children of God - we should act and dress in a [i]dignified[/i] manner. And no, potato sacks are decidedly [i]not[/i] dignified!

I think the most important thing to realize is that modesty is most of all, a [i]state of mind[/i] and an [i]attitude of the heart [/i]we should always keep before us. Modesty is more than just the way we dress, it's also our bearing, how we act, how we live, etc., that is becoming of a child of God.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308441603' post='2255756']
So, you don't like my new persona? Interesting. Ya know...I was doing exactly what was asked of me. I was being accomodating. I was being open. I was inclusive of all people in a way that accepted every position and I was using the terminology of the mainstream Church.

Was it a game? Kinda. But not really.

See, here's the deal, straight up with ABSOLUTELY NO BS (I'm not talking about a degree).

I took an extended break from phatmass.com. I did it for a couple of reasons.

1. I moved from Detroit back to Iowa. In settling into a new life, I became very busy. I was connecting with people I hadn't seen in years, I had a new job, and I was living in a new place.

2. I was too involved here. It really had become an addiction for me. That is never a good thing, so I had to step away.

When I decided to come back, I picked a time that I thought was a good one. But, as it turned out I came back directly after an extended tussle (trying to be nice) with what you deem to be "wackness manifestedters." Because I made the move to traditionalism full time shortly before I came back, I was zealous about the Traditional Latin Mass being a full time venture for me with regard to my spirituality. I'm sure that no one here has ever been excited about a new found full time spirituality. Sure, I had been sympathetic to it for a very long time, as many of you know, but I had never really assisted at the Traditional Latin Mass exclusively until January of 2011.

Because I was zealous about it, I was ready to support it and talk about it. The timing however was terrible, because why? Well, because some phatmassers had just been in a very raw fight with some other phatmassers about this very issue. That being the case, I was scapegoated (yes, that is the correct term) because emotions were close to the top, so no matter what I would have said regarding tradition and Tradition would have come under the same fire. And it did.

Most of you who are old timers here know that I am a little stubborn. Those of you who are new since my hiatus, really know that I am stubborn. It isn't something that I am proud of, but it is something that is part of me. So, once I came under attack (yes, that is the correct term too), I became defensive. Can you blame me? I would hope not, because many of you became very defensive toward me too...so I suspect you can understand.

The thing that hurt me most is that regardless of what happened here while I was gone, I was not given the benefit of the doubt. NOBODY (not one MOD, not dUSt, not one ADMIN) pm'd me to discuss things...the only people who approached me, the wackness manifestedters. So, where was I to go? You answer that. It is obvious. Being a human person, I am going to gravitate toward those who are willing to support me and accept me unconditionally...the wackness manifestedters did that....the phamily (as it has always been called) DID NOT!!! I thought I would have been given a little more respect, but once it was clear that I wasn't going to get any, why should have I returned that bit of charity? I'm only human and I do have feelings, regardless of whether or not I show them or admit them.

So the fight began...and I wasn't going to give up. Mainly because I hadn't said or done anything wrong. I still stand by EVERY SINGLE word that I've said here. I challenge any of you to show me where I have been wrong in any position I've taken here. You won't be able to do it. I'm not being arrogant, I'm being truthful.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize. But that apology comes with one stipulation...in order for it to be given, those who have offended me must offer an apology too. The street runs both ways. And the charity can exist with both parties expecting an apology. That is fair. I take full responsibility for my actions. I was hurt by phatmass. I was hurt by members of phatmass.

Phatmass is not perfect and at times phatmass can be VERY, VERY uncharitable. So can I. I have been. The new persona is an example of this, but I think that it served it's purpose...nobody wants to see me being all sappy and lovey...and the Church doesn't want that from the mainstream Church either....there is more to the Church than just love. There is justice. Part of justice is knowing when there is culpability....I just took responsibility for mine. I hope that the members of phatmass who played a part in this will do the same.

This reminds me of a quote from Superman: The Movie...



Phatmass can be that light...but not until the members understand that it takes everyone to be Kal-El.....not just a few.

I came to this revelation after a long phone conversation with jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff). It was the first time we have talked in about 3 years. I'm willing to make it right...are you?
[/quote]

I am sorry that I mocked you in chat for calling us liberals. I was offended by your words/behavior and acted uncharitably as a result. I am sorry that I dragged other people in to my joke and possibly set them at further odds with you than your own words and actions had already done. I have deliberately avoided talking to you because I didn't want to get into a debate with you. I'm not really sorry for that part because I saw it as being for the greater good of the phorum and it's members. But there you have it, in black and white, what I have done and why I am sorry for it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308461501' post='2255869']
But here's the deal folks, those of you who decided to critique Cam's manner of apology could have simply said "Thank you for apologizing" and left it at that. His apology was to everyone.
[/quote]
No, his [i]offer[/i] for apology (provided that people apologized to him) was for everyone. (What a deal!)

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308496376' post='2255935']
No, his [i]offer[/i] for apology (provided that people apologized to him) was for everyone. (What a deal!)
[/quote]


If you don't want to mend the fence that is fine. I accept that. I don't expect that everyone will want to work to make things better. But I stand behind what I said, because there is more fault here than my own.

[Cam42]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1308496029' post='2255933']
I am sorry that I mocked you in chat for calling us liberals. I was offended by your words/behavior and acted uncharitably as a result. I am sorry that I dragged other people in to my joke and possibly set them at further odds with you than your own words and actions had already done. I have deliberately avoided talking to you because I didn't want to get into a debate with you. I'm not really sorry for that part because I saw it as being for the greater good of the phorum and it's members. But there you have it, in black and white, what I have done and why I am sorry for it.
[/quote]


Thanks, I'm sorry too. I shouldn't have been as sensitive as I was to the situation, but I was....that is my fault. I hope we can work toward repairing things.

[Ice_nine]

maybe in the new Earth we'll all be nekkid. You know, like before Adam and Eve screwed everything up

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1308504767' post='2255977']
maybe in the new Earth we'll all be nekkid. You know, like before Adam and Eve screwed everything up
[/quote]
This works nicely in regard to the pant.s vs. skirts discussion AND in the apology discussion.

[Jaime]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1308505565' post='2255986']
This works nicely in regard to the pant.s vs. skirts discussion AND in the apology discussion.
[/quote]

I really don't want to see you nekkid (or anyone else for that matter)

New world we get robes or something!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308512261' post='2256025']
I really don't want to see you nekkid (or anyone else for that matter)

New world we get robes or something!
[/quote]

I don't know anyone who would object to glorified bodies. Jus' sayin'.

[Jaime]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1308512316' post='2256026']
I don't know anyone who would object to glorified bodies. Jus' sayin'.
[/quote]

you do now!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308501480' post='2255956']
If you don't want to mend the fence that is fine. I accept that. I don't expect that everyone will want to work to make things better. But I stand behind what I said, because there is more fault here than my own.
[/quote]
If you really believe that you are following the commands Jesus left to us by your offer of conditional apology, then so be it.

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308512486' post='2256029']
If you really believe that you are following the commands Jesus left to us by your offer of conditional apology, then so be it.
[/quote]


There is more to this than simply invoking the name of Jesus. See, the issue is that Jesus had no faults, so he had no one to apologize to. We can only ASPIRE to be like Jesus, so yes, I recognize that I am not the only one who is at fault here...if you can't recognize THAT, then so be it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308513749' post='2256039']
There is more to this than simply invoking the name of Jesus. See, the issue is that Jesus had no faults, so he had no one to apologize to. We can only ASPIRE to be like Jesus, so yes, I recognize that I am not the only one who is at fault here...if you can't recognize THAT, then so be it.
[/quote]
Jesus didn't leave his commands to those without faults.
" 21Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times."

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308512261' post='2256025']
I really don't want to see you nekkid (or anyone else for that matter)

New world we get robes or something!
[/quote]
Amen, brother.