Question For The Men...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308412477' post='2255581']
That is a pretty narrow view. We should embrace women in pantaloons. How else are we going to love nuns?
[/quote]

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308422885' post='2255634']
sexy.....
[/quote]


lol.

All I mean is that pantaloons/skirts are not *really* intrinsically men's or women's clothing.

And while I *do* agree that skirts are more feminine and I do fell and act differently in a skirt, I also get hit on and hooted at a heck of a lot more, too.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1308444282' post='2255773']
lol.

All I mean is that pantaloons/skirts are not *really* intrinsically men's or women's clothing.

And while I *do* agree that skirts are more feminine and I do fell and act differently in a skirt, I also get hit on and hooted at a heck of a lot more, too.
[/quote]
i meant the men in tights part

[Nihil Obstat]

"If I have offended anyone, I apologize. But that apology comes with one stipulation...in order for it to be given, those who have offended me must offer an apology too. The street runs both ways. And the charity can exist with both parties expecting an apology. That is fair. I take full responsibility for my actions. I was hurt by phatmass. I was hurt by members of phatmass. "

I think this is fair, and I offer the same. Privately if anyone wants, or publicly. I don't care.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1308443543' post='2255764']
Dear Cam,

I LOVE you. In fact, I just graduated with a degree in music (concentration in Sacred Music) because I really admire the posts you used make in that regard. But I have to say, I think you are wrong here. Relationships ARE a two way street, yes. Apologies.. not so much. A true apology is unconditional. Sometimes we get them. Sometimes ...we don't. And yeah, it's not fair. Life rarely is. But holding a grudge has never made any situation better. The best example I can of is that Jesus didn't say "I'm only getting on that cross if they apologize" and Jesus didn't even do anything wrong. Granted, we can only get to heaven in we repent, but He still leaves the door open for us. And it's unconditional.

It does seem like there was a great series of unfortunate events, perhaps involving over reaction. Personally, I avoided phatmass during that time because those events involved a lot of people I considered friends. Throw an ex in there and it makes it super awkward. But I don't think that throwing your hurt in others' faces is doing any good. It may be just making you look foolish.

Anyway, Just my $0.02.

With Love,
Cat
[/quote]

yup, what she said...apologies don't come with conditions

[Cam42]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1308443543' post='2255764']
Dear Cam,

I LOVE you. In fact, I just graduated with a degree in music (concentration in Sacred Music) because I really admire the posts you used make in that regard. But I have to say, I think you are wrong here. Relationships ARE a two way street, yes. Apologies.. not so much. A true apology is unconditional. Sometimes we get them. Sometimes ...we don't. And yeah, it's not fair. Life rarely is. But holding a grudge has never made any situation better. The best example I can of is that Jesus didn't say "I'm only getting on that cross if they apologize" and Jesus didn't even do anything wrong. Granted, we can only get to heaven in we repent, but He still leaves the door open for us. And it's unconditional.

It does seem like there was a great series of unfortunate events, perhaps involving over reaction. Personally, I avoided phatmass during that time because those events involved a lot of people I considered friends. Throw an ex in there and it makes it super awkward. But I don't think that throwing your hurt in others' faces is doing any good. It may be just making you look foolish.

Anyway, Just my $0.02.

With Love,
Cat
[/quote]

This isn't just about being Catholic. It's about being human. You know, when someone goes through formation to become a priest, there is a fourfold goal.

1. Spiritual
2. Academic
3. Human
4. Pastoral

Insofar as we are human beings we have to be fed in that manner too. We can't always just sluff it off. We can in certain cases, but there has to be accountability on both sides in this...we aspire to be like Christ. We are not Christ. That is why we have to rely on things like reciprocity and fairness. And that is all I'm asking for. If you don't feel that it is important enough to do, that is fine. Apologies are not unconditional...there are conditions placed upon them all the time...even the unconditional ones...As for life not being fair....that is a cliche and not a very good one. Life can be made fair, if people CHOOSE to play fair and they make the playing field fair. The only thing that is unconditional is Christ's love. Again, we aspire to it, but we will never attain it. So stipulations are part of everything we do.

Thanks for your .02, I appreciate your honesty.

[4588686]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308446141' post='2255789']
This isn't just about being Catholic. It's about being human. You know, when someone goes through formation to become a priest, there is a fourfold goal.

1. Spiritual
2. Academic
3. Human
4. Pastoral

Insofar as we are human beings we have to be fed in that manner too. We can't always just sluff it off. We can in certain cases, but there has to be accountability on both sides in this...we aspire to be like Christ. We are not Christ. That is why we have to rely on things like reciprocity and fairness. And that is all I'm asking for. If you don't feel that it is important enough to do, that is fine. Apologies are not unconditional...there are conditions placed upon them all the time...even the unconditional ones...As for life not being fair....that is a cliche and not a very good one. Life can be made fair, if people CHOOSE to play fair and they make the playing field fair. The only thing that is unconditional is Christ's love. Again, we aspire to it, but we will never attain it. So stipulations are part of everything we do.

Thanks for your .02, I appreciate your honesty.
[/quote]


Nope.

I've given apologies and not had them reciprocated. Was it highly annoying? Of course, but that doesn't change that you apologize when you think you've been wrong whether you get anything out of it or not. If you want to apologize then just apologize. Stop all the drama. Stop all the the essence of cow. Stop all the pontificating about your 12 step plan to make the whole world fair and full of puppies and sunshine if only somebody here would recpirocate your amesome peace deal. I can't speak to what happened in the past. Maybe you were treated unfairly several months ago. I don't know. But right now, today, from what I've seen, you're the one who has been acting like a prick and now your suddenly flipping the tables by offering a conditional apology which is a cute flip to today's events as it let's you position yourself as the peacemaker without having to actually stick your neck out by offering a real, unqualified apology. If you feel like you were in the wrong the just apologize for what you did. If people act like jerks about it or ignore it then everybody will see what needs to be seen. Just do what you think is right and move on while being ready to be constructive/open if people choose to do the right thing and reciprocate. That's the only way these situations get resolved.


I know that's easier said than done. I've let stupid arguments turn into 20 page beesh fests. Everyone here has seen it.

[Seven77]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1308000584' post='2253327']
Hello,

I hope it's okay to make this poll.

This is a PRIVATE poll, so no names will be shown.

I'm wondering how bad p.ants on a woman are to modesty. Can y'all post or vote if p.ants on women are really a problem to men? I've read things in religion books, and it always seemed to be a source of temptation to men. The Duggers said they wear skirts because men have enough trouble guarding their eyes and thoughts.

I will be re-thinking my clothes after this, and I hope the same for other women.

God bless you.
[/quote]

So you'll be wearing burkas now? We get tempted by pretty much everything pretty. Sorry.

Seriously though--it's true. It can be fought successfully though and in a chivalrous manner [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

[Totus Tuus]

Seriously, this thread is getting so interesting.
All I can say is, I'm glad one of my hiatuses from PM happened when all of this drama seems to have happened

[Cam42]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1308446775' post='2255794']

[...]

If you feel like you were in the wrong the just apologize for what you did. If people act like jerks about it or ignore it then everybody will see what needs to be seen. Just do what you think is right and move on while being ready to be constructive/open if people choose to do the right thing and reciprocate. That's the only way these situations get resolved.

[...]

[/quote]


I thought I did apologize. And I thought I did what I thought was right....

Hmmmm....thanks for the correction, I guess...

I'll still stick with the way I did it.

[dominicansoul]

I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE YOU MAN!!!

[Cam42]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1308449641' post='2255821']
I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE YOU MAN!!!
[/quote]


You don't look anything like Paul Rudd. Sorry.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308441603' post='2255756']
So, you don't like my new persona? Interesting. Ya know...I was doing exactly what was asked of me. I was being accomodating. I was being open. I was inclusive of all people in a way that accepted every position and I was using the terminology of the mainstream Church.

Was it a game? Kinda. But not really.

See, here's the deal, straight up with ABSOLUTELY NO BS (I'm not talking about a degree).

I took an extended break from phatmass.com. I did it for a couple of reasons.

1. I moved from Detroit back to Iowa. In settling into a new life, I became very busy. I was connecting with people I hadn't seen in years, I had a new job, and I was living in a new place.

2. I was too involved here. It really had become an addiction for me. That is never a good thing, so I had to step away.

When I decided to come back, I picked a time that I thought was a good one. But, as it turned out I came back directly after an extended tussle (trying to be nice) with what you deem to be "wackness manifestedters." Because I made the move to traditionalism full time shortly before I came back, I was zealous about the Traditional Latin Mass being a full time venture for me with regard to my spirituality. I'm sure that no one here has ever been excited about a new found full time spirituality. Sure, I had been sympathetic to it for a very long time, as many of you know, but I had never really assisted at the Traditional Latin Mass exclusively until January of 2011.

Because I was zealous about it, I was ready to support it and talk about it. The timing however was terrible, because why? Well, because some phatmassers had just been in a very raw fight with some other phatmassers about this very issue. That being the case, I was scapegoated (yes, that is the correct term) because emotions were close to the top, so no matter what I would have said regarding tradition and Tradition would have come under the same fire. And it did.

Most of you who are old timers here know that I am a little stubborn. Those of you who are new since my hiatus, really know that I am stubborn. It isn't something that I am proud of, but it is something that is part of me. So, once I came under attack (yes, that is the correct term too), I became defensive. Can you blame me? I would hope not, because many of you became very defensive toward me too...so I suspect you can understand.

The thing that hurt me most is that regardless of what happened here while I was gone, I was not given the benefit of the doubt. NOBODY (not one MOD, not dUSt, not one ADMIN) pm'd me to discuss things...the only people who approached me, the wackness manifestedters. So, where was I to go? You answer that. It is obvious. Being a human person, I am going to gravitate toward those who are willing to support me and accept me unconditionally...the wackness manifestedters did that....the phamily (as it has always been called) DID NOT!!! I thought I would have been given a little more respect, but once it was clear that I wasn't going to get any, why should have I returned that bit of charity? I'm only human and I do have feelings, regardless of whether or not I show them or admit them.

So the fight began...and I wasn't going to give up. Mainly because I hadn't said or done anything wrong. I still stand by EVERY SINGLE word that I've said here. I challenge any of you to show me where I have been wrong in any position I've taken here. You won't be able to do it. I'm not being arrogant, I'm being truthful.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize. But that apology comes with one stipulation...in order for it to be given, those who have offended me must offer an apology too. The street runs both ways. And the charity can exist with both parties expecting an apology. That is fair. I take full responsibility for my actions. I was hurt by phatmass. I was hurt by members of phatmass.

Phatmass is not perfect and at times phatmass can be VERY, VERY uncharitable. So can I. I have been. The new persona is an example of this, but I think that it served it's purpose...nobody wants to see me being all sappy and lovey...and the Church doesn't want that from the mainstream Church either....there is more to the Church than just love. There is justice. Part of justice is knowing when there is culpability....I just took responsibility for mine. I hope that the members of phatmass who played a part in this will do the same.

This reminds me of a quote from Superman: The Movie...



Phatmass can be that light...but not until the members understand that it takes everyone to be Kal-El.....not just a few.

I came to this revelation after a long phone conversation with jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff). It was the first time we have talked in about 3 years. I'm willing to make it right...are you?
[/quote]


I think folks need to calm down a bit.

I have been in situations where I needed to apologize and wasn't expecting one in return. I've been offered apologies when none were needed. And I've offered apologies with knowledge that the person (or persons) who I'm apologizing to have hurt me as well. I honestly don't think apologies need to be like love or surrender. They don't have to always be unconditional. There's no shame in asking for the opportunity to forgive as well.

I get that its different for me. I know Cam in real life so I see beyond the screen name. I know he's sincere in this. I know what he's done for Phatmass and what he can do as a teacher again.

But here's the deal folks, those of you who decided to critique Cam's manner of apology could have simply said "Thank you for apologizing" and left it at that. His apology was to everyone. His hope for an apology was from a few. I've apologized to him for being a bad friend. He accepted. He didn't critique the manner in which I apologized.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308423239' post='2255641']
I've found this to be the same for me, as well. But it's difficult nowadays to find cute, comfy skirts. I have two that I absolutely love, though.
[/quote]
Yes, I have that problem, too. I just turned a couple of pairs of older jeans into skirts, though, and I love them. They aren't so long that I trip over them (as some of my longer skirts are), but also aren't too short (I'm taller, so finding skirts that fit right can be a problem). I think I might have to turn some other old trousers into skirts, too.

[faithcecelia]

I find it a problem that skirts are less likely to have pockets than trousers. Yes, I can have my handbag, but there are times when pockets are far more useful (tissues, puffer, etc).