Question For The Men...

[Chamomile]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1308006533' post='2253364']
Someone once told me that modesty isn't a line drawn on your body, [b]it's a line drawn on your heart[/b]. I think this speaks volumes because like you said, body types are different. Modesty isn't about "what can't I show?" it's about "what should I hold onto with dignity for myself and others?" That being said, while us girls do need to focus on dressing modestly to 1)show them love and 2)prevent them from sinning, I also think the men out there need to train themselves more. I'm sick and tired of the "well she's baring all so I can stare, I'm a dude" excuse.
[/quote]

I understand the idea of "drawing a line on your heart" but remember how deceitful and wicked our hearts can be! To me, I would say one could only live by this rule after really trying to root out sin and passions, after one has a truly pure heart to begin with. I don't think many people - I include myself - in our society today have anywhere near a pure heart, and so that line is in reality arbitrary and not as much of a guiding principal as the nice motto makes it sound.


Modesty is beautiful. And it's not easy in today's society. Christian women should be different from the world, including how we dress.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1308084077' post='2253741']
I understand the idea of "drawing a line on your heart" but remember how deceitful and wicked our hearts can be! To me, I would say one could only live by this rule after really trying to root out sin and passions, after one has a truly pure heart to begin with. I don't think many people - I include myself - in our society today have anywhere near a pure heart, and so that line is in reality arbitrary and not as much of a guiding principal as the nice motto makes it sound.


Modesty is beautiful. And it's not easy in today's society. Christian women should be different from the world, including how we dress.
[/quote]

Don't discount the heart to much though...(not saying you are just giving a word of caution).

Otherwise we all end up as 'men without chests' as C.S. Lewis would call it.

[Chamomile]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308084289' post='2253743']
Don't discount the heart to much though...(not saying you are just giving a word of caution).

Otherwise we all end up as 'men without chests' as C.S. Lewis would call it.
[/quote]

I distrust [i]my[/i] heart. I don't distrust God's presence there transforming it from a stony heart to a true heart. But they've been in major conflict in the past, and still have their issues, so the caution should be applied toward placing too much trust in ourselves, I think.

ETA: I don't mean this in a Calvinistic totally-depraved way. Just saying that I'm not that pure hearted yet.... and thanks for the word of caution

Edited June 14, 2011 by Chamomile

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1308084483' post='2253745']
I distrust [i]my[/i] heart. I don't distrust God's presence there transforming it from a stony heart to a true heart. But they've been in major conflict in the past, and still have their issues, so the caution should be applied toward placing too much trust in ourselves, I think.

ETA: I don't mean this in a Calvinistic totally-depraved way. Just saying that I'm not that pure hearted yet.... and thanks for the word of caution
[/quote]

Yeah I understand, it's just to accept that we can never fully reach the sort of pure-heart that can avoid all temptation etc.

It's the acceptance of our faults and how God's Grace builds through them that makes all the difference. : )

[Chamomile]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308085613' post='2253749']
Yeah I understand, it's just to accept that we can never fully reach the sort of pure-heart that can avoid all temptation etc.

It's the acceptance of our faults and how God's Grace builds through them that makes all the difference. : )
[/quote]

Not to drag this further off-topic (although I guess I'm going to anyways), but I disagree. We are definitely called to be totally pure of heart. No one has the grace of [i]avoiding [/i]temptation - even Jesus was subject to it. Being pure of heart - I think St. Augustine or one of the Early Church Fathers defined it as being focused on the one thing necessary - regards how one views the entire world and oneself in relation to God, and that determines how we interact with Him and others. So acceptance of being human and needing God's mercy is part of that.

Our hearts are designed to be completely pure. We are called to respond perfectly to God's grace, and it is possible to do just that (though I think those that do respond perfectly aren't given the knowledge that they do that, as that could lead to pride). Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross and then given us the Sacrament of His own Body and Blood just so we could be pretty good at not giving into temptation.

I understand what you're saying here - that we screw up and need God's help - but the Church is full of Saints, living & dead, who are truly pure of heart. Although I say I'm not there yet, I believe it's possible to be truly pure of heart even in this world,[i] only with God's help, of course[/i]. To deny that possibility is to just half-heartedly (pun intended) live the Christian life, in my opinion. What else is there but to strive for perfection? What other choice is there between God and hell?

See Matthew 5:48. However, I suspect there might be something we're miscommunicating regarding purity of heart/temptation/chastity/modesty and how that all ties together.

[b]Anyways, talk about pant.s again, people.[/b]

Edited June 14, 2011 by Chamomile

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1308084077' post='2253741']
I understand the idea of "drawing a line on your heart" but remember how deceitful and wicked our hearts can be! To me, I would say one could only live by this rule after really trying to root out sin and passions, after one has a truly pure heart to begin with. I don't think many people - I include myself - in our society today have anywhere near a pure heart, and so that line is in reality arbitrary and not as much of a guiding principal as the nice motto makes it sound.


Modesty is beautiful. And it's not easy in today's society. Christian women should be different from the world, including how we dress.
[/quote]

By the "drawing a line on your heart" idea, it was intended to reflect modesty as a representation of Christian dignity and something to be valued, a goal. If it came across as "modesty is whatever you want to make it or what fits you in your current situation", that is not the thought I intended, and I apologize. : )

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1308040609' post='2253519']
This reminds me of something



Young King Arthur was ambushed and imprisoned by the monarch of a neighbouring kingdom.
The monarch could have killed him, but was moved by Arthur's youthful happiness. So he offered him
freedom, as long as he could answer a very difficult question. Arthur would have a year to figure out the answer; if, after a year, he
still had no answer, he would be killed.

The question was:
What do women really want?

Such a question would perplex even the most knowledgable man, and, to young Arthur, it seemed an impossible query.

Well, since it was better than death, he accepted the monarch's proposition to have an answer by year's end. He returned to his
kingdom and began to consult everybody: the princesses, the prostitutes, the priests, but no one could answer the question.

What most people did tell him was to consult the old witch, as only she would know the answer. The price would be high, since the
witch was famous throughout the kingdom for the exorbitant prices she charged.

The last day of the year arrived and Arthur had no alternative but to talk to the witch. She agreed to answer his question, but he'd have
to accept her price first:

The old witch wanted to marry Gawain, the most noble of the Knights of the Round Table and Arthur's closest friend!

Young Arthur was horrified: she was hunch-backed and awfully hideous, had only one tooth, smelled like sewage water, often made
obscene noises...

He had never run across such a repugnant creature. He refused to force his friend to marry her and have to endure such a burden.

Gawain, upon learning of the proposal, spoke with Arthur. He told him that nothing was too big a sacrifice compared to Arthur's life and
the preservation of the Round Table.

Hence, their wedding was proclaimed, and the witch answered Arthur's question:
"What a woman really wants is to be able to be in charge of her own life."

Everyone instantly knew that the witch had uttered a great truth and that Arthur's life would be spared. And so it went. The neighbouring
monarch spared Arthur's life and granted him total freedom.

What a wedding Gawain and the witch had! Arthur was torn between relief and anguish. Gawain was proper as always, gentle and courteous.
The old witch put her worst manners on display. She ate with her hands, belched and farted, and made everyone uncomfortable.

The wedding night approached: Gawain, steeling himself for a horrific night, entered the bedroom. What a sight awaited! The most beautiful woman
he'd ever seen lay before him! Gawain was astounded and asked what had happened.

The beauty replied that since he had been so kind to her (when she'd been a witch), half the time she would be her horrible, deformed self, and the other
half, she would be her beautiful maiden self.

Which would he want her to be during the day and which during the night?

What a cruel question? Gawain began to think of his predicament:

During the day a beautiful woman to show off to his friends, but at night, in the privacy of his home, an old spooky witch?

Or would he prefer having by day a hideous witch, but by night a beautiful woman with whom to enjoy many intimate
moments? Noble Gawain replied that he would let her choose for herself.

Upon hearing this, she announced that she would be beautiful all the time, because he had respected her and had let her be in charge of her own
life
[/quote]
That was a terrible punchline!

[Ephrem Augustine]

Girls in long skirts are generally beautiful

p.ants, sometimes

[stevil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308107867' post='2253900']
That was a terrible punchline!
[/quote]
Oh,

I thought the moral was good though. Let people make their own decisions, even if you feel like you have control.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308107867' post='2253900']
That was a terrible punchline!
[/quote]


Its a moral legend not a joke

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1308093043' post='2253795']
Not to drag this further off-topic (although I guess I'm going to anyways), but I disagree. We are definitely called to be totally pure of heart. No one has the grace of [i]avoiding [/i]temptation - even Jesus was subject to it. Being pure of heart - I think St. Augustine or one of the Early Church Fathers defined it as being focused on the one thing necessary - regards how one views the entire world and oneself in relation to God, and that determines how we interact with Him and others. So acceptance of being human and needing God's mercy is part of that.

Our hearts are designed to be completely pure. We are called to respond perfectly to God's grace, and it is possible to do just that (though I think those that do respond perfectly aren't given the knowledge that they do that, as that could lead to pride). Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross and then given us the Sacrament of His own Body and Blood just so we could be pretty good at not giving into temptation.

I understand what you're saying here - that we screw up and need God's help - but the Church is full of Saints, living & dead, who are truly pure of heart. Although I say I'm not there yet, I believe it's possible to be truly pure of heart even in this world,[i] only with God's help, of course[/i]. To deny that possibility is to just half-heartedly (pun intended) live the Christian life, in my opinion. What else is there but to strive for perfection? What other choice is there between God and hell?

See Matthew 5:48. However, I suspect there might be something we're miscommunicating regarding purity of heart/temptation/chastity/modesty and how that all ties together.

[b]Anyways, talk about pant.s again, people.[/b]
[/quote]

This is somewhat of something that would have to be discussed aloud rather than on a forum haha, so yes I agree on the miscommunicating though I agree with you here. : )

Yes please let's keep this discussion up....

[ContemporaryCaflicCrusader]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1308005605' post='2253356']
I personally feel that the, "I should wear shirts that are two fingers below the collar bone, such and such should only show up to 3 inches when I bend over, shorts should pass my fingertips.... on and on" approaches to modesty are dangerous. I'm not a guy, but I feel that imposing those guidelines on ourselves 1) does not acknowledge the fact that all men are different (what is tempting to one may not be to another. Some men are turned on by women in Burkas.), and 2) does not acknowledge that all women are different (what is modest on me might not be modest on someone with a different body type.

I know we can exhaust the modesty issue to death, and that's not what I'm trying to do. What I am trying to contribute is that speaking of modesty in a "how much/little can/should be covered" type of way leaves out a whole plethora of other things that should be taken into consideration and flirts both with scruples and skankiness at the same time, depending on which way you utilize the "rules" that people (*cough*certainmodestybookauthors*cough*) have put forth.
[/quote]

What's a Burka???

I think it's pretty relative. Ladies wear as much clothing as you can, and we'll purge our passions by telling them (Our passions) to shut up. This becomes easier when you're living in the state of grace regularly no matter what way she is, or should I say isn't, dressed. So go to Mass and Confession regularly, pray for strength and stuff every morning, (Unless you're like me and don't wake up til afternoon on non working days lol,) do your examination of conscience nightly and come back to Phatmass to talk to us about it. :-)

Edited June 15, 2011 by ContemporaryCaflicCrusader

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1308020421' post='2253436']
I thought that's exactly what flaunting is - presenting in an attractive way.
[/quote]

No. It's not. Under that logic, I'm flaunting my body in anything less than a potato sack.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='ContemporaryCaflicCrusader' timestamp='1308180836' post='2254345']
I think it's pretty relative. Ladies wear as much clothing as you can, and we'll purge our passions by telling them (Our passions) to shut up.
[/quote]

No offense, but I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If it's not, I will have a long reply coming stat....

Edited June 16, 2011 by Totus Tuus

[Cam42]

I love pantaloons...

I love people.

therefore I love people in pantaloons.

I love you.