Noel's angel Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Cam, you're not being funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308328248' post='2255074'] Cam, you're not being funny. [/quote] I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to get along with everyone. I think that we should just love one another....Phatmasmass is important to me and I've had a change of heart. Why should we fight...we're all Catholics and we should all just get along.. Please don't judge me. Please accept the new Cam, for who I am...an inclusive Catholic who embraces all sisters and brothers, no matter where they are on their journey. Thanks for your concern though, I love you for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 its very simple: we need to follow the Church's directions for music in Mass. The Mass is bigger than all of us...it is given to us as a gift from the Almighty God. We should do our very best to worship Him in the manner He has directed us through His Church. The Mass is not some event where we can do whatever we wish. Were we the One who suffered a cruel and brutal death and hung on a cross and died? Are we the one Who's sacrifice is celebrated at every Mass? No. He is Jesus Christ, and to Him is given all Authority. He has given us the Holy Catholic Church, to obey her in every aspect. If we cannot follow simple rules such as what type of music we should be playing at Mass, what makes us think we can handle the bigger rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308207725' post='2254482'] Insofar as the mechanical production of sound, the closest approximation I can imagine for the vocal cords are brass instruments. I suppose you might also could fold double reeds in, but really the lips vibrating against one another as air flows between them is closest to the folds of flesh that make up the vocal folds/cords. [img]http://www.starsinginglessons.com/images/vocal_cords.jpg[/img] Vocal Cords [You know what lips look like, and you can surely imagine them vibrating against one another in a manner basically identical to the folds above.] [img]http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/13/2913-004-E346D11F.gif[/img] Flue Pipe Schematic [img]http://www.ibiblio.org/pipeorgan/Pages/ReedPipes.JPG[/img] Reed Pipe Schematic For comparison: [img]http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Recorder300.png[/img] Any fipple-based instrument (recorder, whistles, and similar) - note similarity to flue pipes. [img]http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Sax/MouthpieceData/Diagram.jpg[/img] Single reed mouthpiece (saxophone, clarinet, and similar) - note similarity to reed pipes. (Here's a comparison that will get your goat ( )- the whole mechanism of the bagpipes would indeed be much closer to the physiology of the human body, excepting the drones, particularly if one imagines the bag as the lungs (how human-like is the windchest?) and the double-reed in the chanter as the vocal folds.) You can see that the mechanical method by which the sound is produced is clearly not very similar (when comparing organ and voice), at least beyond the whole setting masses of air vibrating by altering the pressure thing. This would depend largely on the particular organ stop(s) in question. I'm not arguing that the organ should not be considered the most ideal instrument to be used in a sacred setting. I just think that there are much better reasons - indeed, each other reason is a better reason - than "because it makes sound like the voice does" (even "because the Church says so" is a better reason...at least that one is based in fact). (By the way: No, she was right. It's classified under the Hornbostel-Sachs number 314.122 - Board zither with resonator box. Just for future reference.) [/quote] I like Kazoos. I think they are fun, but the question is this...can they be rendered apt, by the Church's defintion? If so...I'll start a kazoo band with you for next Easter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I"ve played the organ at Mass since I was seven years old. My beautiful mother taught me the value of Mass, and she reared me in teh rich traditions of the Church. What I witnessed as organist was frightful: priests not following the rubrics, and laity getting their way at Mass. I stood my ground, even at seven. I refused to play what I refer to as "circus" music, and stuck to the rich traditional hymns. When a priest asked me to "play something during the Consecration," I firmly responded, "Father, that is not in the rubrics of the Mass..." When playing for funerals and weddings, secular music is popular. I always respectfully told those who hired me to play, "I can't play that kind of music at the Holy Mass." Most of them reneged and allowed sacred music, others hired someone else... We dont' have to be mean about it. I never was. I just stood firm, and prayed to the Holy Spirit every time I've had to say something (and it's been a million times in my life where I've had to say something.) I think all the parishes I've played have learned to respect that here is a Catholic who refuses to be forced to worship in a way contrary to what the Church teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1308328929' post='2255082'] its very simple: we need to follow the Church's directions for music in Mass. The Mass is bigger than all of us...it is given to us as a gift from the Almighty God. We should do our very best to worship Him in the manner He has directed us through His Church. The Mass is not some event where we can do whatever we wish. Were we the One who suffered a cruel and brutal death and hung on a cross and died? Are we the one Who's sacrifice is celebrated at every Mass? No. He is Jesus Christ, and to Him is given all Authority. He has given us the Holy Catholic Church, to obey her in every aspect. If we cannot follow simple rules such as what type of music we should be playing at Mass, what makes us think we can handle the bigger rules? [/quote] I agree completely with that DS....I think that is a very good summation. But what about innovation? Shouldn't we be able to make our music the music of the Church? I mean we are the People of God and he will love us for our participation. We should do our very best to worship Him in helping the priest celebrate the Mass. We should show him by our gifts... The Mass is ours though. We celebrate it. We live it. We love it. So, we should be able to have input into it, no? We should obey the Church, but are the rules that fast when it comes to music? I think that Vatican II certainly opened the door for us to love the new music and put it forward...I mean chanting is only a suggestion and only one way of many to be Catholic....what if the youth don't like it? What then? They will leave, so we should sing pop songs like [i]amesome God[/i], so they stay engaged. That is what is important in doing Mass, that we stay engaged with the amesomeness which abounds all around us and in us...and I think that praise and worship music helps us to praise and worship. So I say, let's do it, because Jesus don't care. He loves us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1308329248' post='2255087'] I"ve played the organ at Mass since I was seven years old. My beautiful mother taught me the value of Mass, and she reared me in teh rich traditions of the Church. What I witnessed as organist was frightful: priests not following the rubrics, and laity getting their way at Mass. I stood my ground, even at seven. I refused to play what I refer to as "circus" music, and stuck to the rich traditional hymns. When a priest asked me to "play something during the Consecration," I firmly responded, "Father, that is not in the rubrics of the Mass..." When playing for funerals and weddings, secular music is popular. I always respectfully told those who hired me to play, "I can't play that kind of music at the Holy Mass." Most of them reneged and allowed sacred music, others hired someone else... We dont' have to be mean about it. I never was. I just stood firm, and prayed to the Holy Spirit every time I've had to say something (and it's been a million times in my life where I've had to say something.) I think all the parishes I've played have learned to respect that here is a Catholic who refuses to be forced to worship in a way contrary to what the Church teaches. [/quote] We don't need to hold so fast to the rubrics though, DS...they are just guides to help us on our journey. What makes Mass holy is the fact that the People of God commune together, right? So music should just be secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308329487' post='2255089'] I agree completely with that DS....I think that is a very good summation. But what about innovation? Shouldn't we be able to make our music the music of the Church? I mean we are the People of God and he will love us for our participation. We should do our very best to worship Him in helping the priest celebrate the Mass. We should show him by our gifts... The Mass is ours though. We celebrate it. We live it. We love it. So, we should be able to have input into it, no? We should obey the Church, but are the rules that fast when it comes to music? I think that Vatican II certainly opened the door for us to love the new music and put it forward...I mean chanting is only a suggestion and only one way of many to be Catholic....what if the youth don't like it? What then? They will leave, so we should sing pop songs like [i]amesome God[/i], so they stay engaged. That is what is important in doing Mass, that we stay engaged with the amesomeness which abounds all around us and in us...and I think that praise and worship music helps us to praise and worship. So I say, let's do it, because Jesus don't care. He loves us. [/quote] we should only allow what the Church allows. Although you are being sarcastic, what you have expressed is the attitude of most Catholics' approach to the Mass. Innovation? Get into the parishes and catechize. One.class.at.a.time. God will do the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308329594' post='2255090'] We don't need to hold so fast to the rubrics though, DS...they are just guides to help us on our journey. What makes Mass holy is the fact that the People of God commune together, right? So music should just be secondary. [/quote] hahaha I have a story. In the Dominican convent I used to belong to, we practice and practice and practice our voices and hymns throughout the week, not only for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but for the daily praying of the Office. (Chant is used extensively...) One day, we all pretty much fouled up. Stank up our voices, failed in our chants, etc. I'm not sure what happened to us that day, it rarely happened like that. Well, after our prayer time, we were supposed to be heading to recreation. But the Superiors wanted a word with us. We were chastised. We were told that we should NEVER make those kinds of mistakes again. Our Superiors were passionate about this. I will never forget Sister's words. She said, "It is a PRIVILEGE to stand before the Presence of Jesus and worship him in our song. We are singing with the angels, and we should strive for perfection." We all received penances for that. I will never forget it. When I go to Mass now, and I hear some little whirling dervish of a secular or secularized song, I think, "Now, is that really fitting for the company we are singing with?" Or even more importantly, "Have we forgotten Who we are singing to??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308328533' post='2255078'] I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to get along with everyone. I think that we should just love one another....Phatmasmass is important to me and I've had a change of heart. Why should we fight...we're all Catholics and we should all just get along.. Please don't judge me. Please accept the new Cam, for who I am...an inclusive Catholic who embraces all sisters and brothers, no matter where they are on their journey. Thanks for your concern though, I love you for that. [/quote] Attention seeking...I thought people grow out of that when they're about 5. You're just totally discrediting yourself now. Anyway, I'm not going to play this game. Hopefully some day you'll see how ridiculous your behaviour is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamomile Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308328533' post='2255078'] I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to get along with everyone. I think that we should just love one another....Phatmasmass is important to me and I've had a change of heart. Why should we fight...we're all Catholics and we should all just get along.. Please don't judge me. Please accept the new Cam, for who I am...an inclusive Catholic who embraces all sisters and brothers, no matter where they are on their journey. Thanks for your concern though, I love you for that. [/quote] Cam, I really do love you. And I agree with you on many things and probably disagree with you on others, and most likely express those opinions in ways very different than how you express them. But I really do respect you and have learned much from you. However, I would ask that you please don't sarcastically degrade Christian charity to make a point. "I love you" never ends with an elipsis, but with a period, because it is what it says. Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. God is love. I don't see how being sarcastic about this truth - even when trying to argue like a sort of devil's advocate - edifies either you or those reading your comments. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I find the way you're writing really strange and concerning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1308331798' post='2255111'] Cam, I really do love you. And I agree with you on many things and probably disagree with you on others, and most likely express those opinions in ways very different than how you express them. But I really do respect you and have learned much from you. However, I would ask that you please don't sarcastically degrade Christian charity to make a point. "I love you" never ends with an elipsis, but with a period, because it is what it says. Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. God is love. I don't see how being sarcastic about this truth - even when trying to argue like a sort of devil's advocate - edifies either you or those reading your comments. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I find the way you're writing really strange and concerning. [/quote] I love you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1308329750' post='2255091'] we should only allow what the Church allows. Although you are being sarcastic, what you have expressed is the attitude of most Catholics' approach to the Mass. Innovation? Get into the parishes and catechize. One.class.at.a.time. God will do the rest. [/quote] I'm not being sarcastic. This is the new me. I am showing phatmass and the phatmassers the love they deserve. I have been uncharitable in the past by having no emotional ties to this lovely and wonderful place. So, DS, I've turned over a new leaf. I'm all about love and understanding of all positions....because catholic means universal and we should love all things.... I have taken the gift that dUSt has given me and I am now showing the love. Please don't mock dUSt's gift to me and to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308330490' post='2255096'] Attention seeking...I thought people grow out of that when they're about 5. You're just totally discrediting yourself now. Anyway, I'm not going to play this game. Hopefully some day you'll see how ridiculous your behaviour is. [/quote] My behavior is accomdating. I must be accomdating. I have to show the love. That is what is expected of me, by those who are important, so I find it a little stressful that you would think that my actions are ridiculous. I'm just trying to fit in. I can't win for losing with some people. That's ok though...I still love you. I will still pray for you. Thank you so much for your concern for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308330490' post='2255096'] You're just totally discrediting yourself now. [/quote] BTW, that was done about 5 months ago, and not by what I said....not today... Today is about love of neighbor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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