Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308205286' post='2254476'] If I understand vocal cords correctly, I think it would have to be admitted that they're more similar in function to a reed instrument, however at that point we also have to consider what sort of tone the instrument produces.[/quote] Insofar as the mechanical production of sound, the closest approximation I can imagine for the vocal cords are brass instruments. I suppose you might also could fold double reeds in, but really the lips vibrating against one another as air flows between them is closest to the folds of flesh that make up the vocal folds/cords. [img]http://www.starsinginglessons.com/images/vocal_cords.jpg[/img] Vocal Cords [You know what lips look like, and you can surely imagine them vibrating against one another in a manner basically identical to the folds above.] [img]http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/13/2913-004-E346D11F.gif[/img] Flue Pipe Schematic [img]http://www.ibiblio.org/pipeorgan/Pages/ReedPipes.JPG[/img] Reed Pipe Schematic For comparison: [img]http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Recorder300.png[/img] Any fipple-based instrument (recorder, whistles, and similar) - note similarity to flue pipes. [img]http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Sax/MouthpieceData/Diagram.jpg[/img] Single reed mouthpiece (saxophone, clarinet, and similar) - note similarity to reed pipes. (Here's a comparison that will get your goat ( )- the whole mechanism of the bagpipes would indeed be much closer to the physiology of the human body, excepting the drones, particularly if one imagines the bag as the lungs (how human-like is the windchest?) and the double-reed in the chanter as the vocal folds.) You can see that the mechanical method by which the sound is produced is clearly not very similar (when comparing organ and voice), at least beyond the whole setting masses of air vibrating by altering the pressure thing. [quote] The organ is less likely to overpower the voice than the clarinet, for instance, because as I perceive it, there's something in the sound itself in a pipe organ organ (the timbre, perhaps?) that more closely emulates a human voice than does a reed instrument. [/quote] This would depend largely on the particular organ stop(s) in question. I'm not arguing that the organ should not be considered the most ideal instrument to be used in a sacred setting. I just think that there are much better reasons - indeed, each other reason is a better reason - than "because it makes sound like the voice does" (even "because the Church says so" is a better reason...at least that one is based in fact). (By the way: [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308179715' post='2254325'] Percussive instrument actually, but besides that you're correct. [/quote] No, she was right. It's classified under the Hornbostel-Sachs number 314.122 - Board zither with resonator box. Just for future reference.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Edit: doubledouble pastapasta Edited June 16, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308207725' post='2254482'] Insofar as the mechanical production of sound, the closest approximation I can imagine for the vocal cords are brass instruments. I suppose you might also could fold double reeds in, but really the lips vibrating against one another as air flows between them is closest to the folds of flesh that make up the vocal folds/cords. [img]http://www.starsinginglessons.com/images/vocal_cords.jpg[/img] Vocal Cords [You know what lips look like, and you can surely imagine them vibrating against one another in a manner basically identical to the folds above.] [img]http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/13/2913-004-E346D11F.gif[/img] Flue Pipe Schematic [img]http://www.ibiblio.org/pipeorgan/Pages/ReedPipes.JPG[/img] Reed Pipe Schematic For comparison: [img]http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Recorder300.png[/img] Any fipple-based instrument (recorder, whistles, and similar) - note similarity to flue pipes. [img]http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Sax/MouthpieceData/Diagram.jpg[/img] Single reed mouthpiece (saxophone, clarinet, and similar) - note similarity to reed pipes. (Here's a comparison that will get your goat ( )- the whole mechanism of the bagpipes would indeed be much closer to the physiology of the human body, excepting the drones, particularly if one imagines the bag as the lungs (how human-like is the windchest?) and the double-reed in the chanter as the vocal folds.) You can see that the mechanical method by which the sound is produced is clearly not very similar (when comparing organ and voice), at least beyond the whole setting masses of air vibrating by altering the pressure thing. This would depend largely on the particular organ stop(s) in question. I'm not arguing that the organ should not be considered the most ideal instrument to be used in a sacred setting. I just think that there are much better reasons - indeed, each other reason is a better reason - than "because it makes sound like the voice does" (even "because the Church says so" is a better reason...at least that one is based in fact). (By the way: No, she was right. It's classified under the Hornbostel-Sachs number 314.122 - Board zither with resonator box. Just for future reference.) [/quote] "No, she was right. It's classified under the Hornbostel-Sachs number 314.122 - Board zither with resonator box. Just for future reference.)" I've read that some systems of classification put it in a broader category that includes both traditional stringed instruments, and other instruments generally referred to as percussion. I think maybe we're both right. "I'm not arguing that the organ should not be considered the most ideal instrument to be used in a sacred setting. I just think that there are much better reasons - indeed, each other reason is a better reason - than "because it makes sound like the voice does" (even "because the Church says so" is a better reason...at least that one is based in fact)." You're ignoring the part about the tone of the instrument though, or the timbre, or whatever it actually is. Imagine, for an example, a clarinet and trumpet group. If they were playing at any particular volume, they're going to overpower the voices, simply because of how those instruments cut through everything else. A decent organ doesn't seem to do that, even at relatively considerable volumes. There is obviously ambiguity based on the types of instruments we're comparing and the quality and type of the organ, but I think in general there's an argument to be made that there's something about the tone that an organ produces that makes it well suited for supporting but not overpowering the human voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308208794' post='2254484'] You're ignoring the part about the tone of the instrument though, or the timbre, or whatever it actually is. Imagine, for an example, a clarinet and trumpet group. If they were playing at any particular volume, they're going to overpower the voices, simply because of how those instruments cut through everything else. A decent organ doesn't seem to do that, even at relatively considerable volumes. [/quote] I'm ignoring that because it's not part of the argument. The discussion we're having is about the manner that the instrument produces sound, not about any of the qualities of the sound that is produced. (As an aside, any [i]trompette en chamade[/i] stop worth its weight in fairy snot would be more overpowering than a trumpet ensemble playing at a medium volume. At least the trumpet ensemble would be able to vary its dynamic intensity.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308209229' post='2254487'] I'm ignoring that because it's not part of the argument. The discussion we're having is about the manner that the instrument produces sound, not about any of the qualities of the sound that is produced. (As an aside, any [i]trompette en chamade[/i] stop worth its weight in fairy snot would be more overpowering than a trumpet ensemble playing at a medium volume. At least the trumpet ensemble would be able to vary its dynamic intensity.) [/quote] I'm developing my argument as we go. I accepted earlier that it's not strictly the manner of the sound production (I think 'similar' is close enough for that), but also the quality of the sound produced. Going from Vatican documents which establish the function of liturgical instruments as supporting the voice, we should look at what in particular in the organ supports the human voice in the way that a piano does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308192184' post='2254409'] Songs for church need to be about us and we. Not I and me [/quote] But I thought we werent supposed to hold hands during the Our Father because it was supposed to be about "I and Me" not "Us and We". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1308274955' post='2254884'] But I thought we werent supposed to hold hands during the Our Father because it was supposed to be about "I and Me" not "Us and We". [/quote] Uh that's not what my argument has been, nor others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308275437' post='2254889'] Uh that's not what my argument has been, nor others. [/quote] Well, It is an argument that I have [i]heard.[/i] (Mind you, I cant hear a forum post...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1308275598' post='2254890'] Well, It is an argument that I have [i]heard.[/i] (Mind you, I cant hear a forum post...) [/quote] I can hear forum posts, can't everyone? maybe you're just a little hard of hearing Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1308275808' post='2254893'] I can hear forum posts, can't everyone? maybe you're just a little hard of hearing Jon [/quote] What? Sorry I didnt hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I think that praise and worship music is swell. We should all just be praising and worshiping God at Mass. So however we feel that we should do this is fine. There is no problem with singing songs with guitars. There is no problem with singing songs with drums and synthesizers... We have to make sure we relate to all our sisters and brothers. We need to make them feel loved and if making them feel loved is by singing praise an worship then that is what we should do, because praise and worship music makes us feel good. And that is really what Mass is all about....it's about feelings. And how we feel when we're there... The only truth is that Jesus is in the Eucharist and when we do Eucharist, we should make sure we're happy and loving our neighbors with agape love when we do the Eucharist... We should be saying, "I love you Jesus! I love you!" So, let's make sure we all ask for [i]amesome God[/i] to be sung at the next Mass we celebrate! Because that is what Mass is, a celebration and God is an amesome God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I've been reading this thread for a while now and thinking about it... and I'm still not officially sure where I stand on the whole issue. Part of me wants to say that it's a "milk before meat" sort of deal. That "praise and worship" music [i]does[/i] assist those who have never been able to truly enter into the Mass, making an offering of themselves as their spiritual act of worship. Once this sort of practice is developed, the P&W can be stripped away slowly as folks are being taught to do that without the aid of that sort of music. Then the good stuff is brought in, which elevates the whole thing. I emphasize P&W as a tool for teaching folks how make that spiritual act of worship. Just coming from university, I can't tell you how often I've seen this in practice. So many folks who came to school as either non-practicing or simply non-understanding Catholics; lukewarm. For one reason or another, they joined up with Campus Ministry or FOCUS, and started taking their faith seriously. P&W was extremely popular, especially bringing them into the Mass. And after a while, they out grew P&W and settled for more traditional music. But, like I said, I'm conflicted. Even though I see P&W as "milk before meat", there's no denying what the Church teaches regarding sacred music. So... I don't know. I defer to the priests I trust and let their judgment guide things. Not mine. Nevertheless... let us strip and burn all hymnals that have "All Are Welcome" and "Gather Us In". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308324882' post='2255051'] Nevertheless... let us strip and burn all hymnals that have "All Are Welcome" and "Gather Us In". [/quote] Our Bishop Emeritus Galleone was a very solid and orthodox man. When I was going through RCIA, I distinctly remember the head of the program telling an anecdote about how the bishop hated "All Are Welcome" and had instructed them to quit singing it. She said with a laugh, "So we make sure not to sing it...when the bishop is here." Greaaat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308324882' post='2255051'] Nevertheless... let us strip and burn all hymnals that have "All Are Welcome" and "Gather Us In". [/quote] That doesn't sound very loving toward the good people at GIA. They are just sharing their talents with us....and those talents should be shared....they are part of God's people too. We are called to act with justice, We are called to love tenderly... How do we love David Haas and Marty Haugen if we are being oppressive and burning their material? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308327029' post='2255063'] Our Bishop Emeritus Galleone was a very solid and orthodox man. When I was going through RCIA, I distinctly remember the head of the program telling an anecdote about how the bishop hated "All Are Welcome" and had instructed them to quit singing it. She said with a laugh, "So we make sure not to sing it...when the bishop is here." Greaaat.... [/quote] That's not being very welcoming of Bishop Galleone...after all, All are Welcome in this place. but apparently not for Bishop. He seems to be pretty unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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