Lil Red Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308176383' post='2254278'] Yes, all of that is true. A friend of mine is the organist at a small Protestant parish in the Midwest. He loves traditional hymns, though he plays a wide variety of music for the different services - but his choices are not generally subjugated to the approval of his pastor. Which is a good thing! His relationship with his pastor is very trying, because he is doctrinally quite liberal (the pastor, not the organist) and that leads to all sorts of tension and disagreement. Certainly, I think my friend plans to outlive the pastor at this church. He likes the pope and is quite friendly to Catholic doctrine, so I have teasingly invited him to convert on several occasions. Maybe someday! (Especially now that the Anglicans can convert but retain something of their liturgy.) The Vatican II documents make it clear that the education about sacred music is not first and foremost the job of the people in the pews (though they are to be educated enough to sing along and participate), but rather of the pastors and musical directors. I do not understand why pianos were nixed? Are they considered a cheap imitation of the organ or something? [/quote] i've read that they are considering a string instrument, which is not allowed? (or i could be totally off-base, so don't take my word for it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308176856' post='2254288'] i've read that they are considering a string instrument, which is not allowed? (or i could be totally off-base, so don't take my word for it.) [/quote] Percussive instrument actually, but besides that you're correct. The piano is a lovely, spectacular instrument... for secular music. Edited June 15, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308179715' post='2254325'] Percussive instrument actually, but besides that you're correct. The piano is a lovely, spectacular instrument... for secular music. [/quote] thanks, that's what i meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308180261' post='2254333'] thanks, that's what i meant. [/quote] I figured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1308080084' post='2253722'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h84VIltm8-M[/media] I always thought that this would be the perfect song for use in Mass. But I guess some would say that it not "sacred" enough. I dont think it would fit as a communion song, but as a song of preparation. And how could a song like this take away from the glory of the Eucharist? If anything, it would help those who do not usually pray before recieving the Eucharist to prepare, just by singing the lyrics. [/quote] Songs for church need to be about us and we. Not I and me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 The whole argument about the organ being best because it produces sound similarly to the voice always comes off as BS to me. Are pennywhistles allowed? They produce sound in an identical fashion to that of the organ, or at least her flue pipes(which is not so similar to how the voice is produced anyway). Or how about clarinets or saxophones? The way their sound is produced are identical to reed pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308199027' post='2254439'] The whole argument about the organ being best because it produces sound similarly to the voice always comes off as BS to me. Are pennywhistles allowed? They produce sound in an identical fashion to that of the organ, or at least her flue pipes(which is not so similar to how the voice is produced anyway). Or how about clarinets or saxophones? The way their sound is produced are identical to reed pipes. [/quote] Well whatever. If you don't like that argument, here's the Vatican's take on it, which I also think is perfectly lovely. "The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things." However people always quibble with that by saying that their godawful twelve string campfire guitar also can lift up people's minds to God. It is repeatedly said in Church documents that instruments are meant only to support liturgical singing, and the organ is particularly well suited for that. Edited June 16, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Then continuing on, "58. These norms must be applied to the use of the organ or other musical instruments. Among the musical instruments that have a place in church the organ rightly holds the principal position, since it is especially fitted for the sacred chants and sacred rites. It adds a wonderful splendor and a special magnificence to the ceremonies of the Church. It moves the souls of the faithful by the grandeur and sweetness of its tones. It gives minds an almost heavenly joy and it lifts them up powerfully to God and to higher things." (Musicae Sacrae) Edited June 16, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Now listen, you don't have to convince me that the organ is the queen of instruments. She's been my favorite for as long as I can remember (and God nearly always shares my opinions ). I'm just saying that it's a pitifully weak argument and frankly, a false one, to claim that it's good/better/best because it makes sound in the way the voice does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308200177' post='2254450'] Now listen, you don't have to convince me that the organ is the queen of instruments. She's been my favorite for as long as I can remember (and God nearly always shares my opinions ). I'm just saying that it's a pitifully weak argument and frankly, a false one, to claim that it's good/better/best because it makes sound in the way the voice does. [/quote] Iunno, I didn't make the argument up. I just read it somewhere. Can't recall where now. It seems to me that, since it produces sound in a similar way to the human voice, that makes it more well-suited for supporting the human voice without overpowering it. I.e., since it 'blends' better, it will not tend to draw attention away from the human voice. Remember also that dignified string playing, followed by limited use of wind instruments is considered appropriate (moreso for special occasions). Those instruments are also more similar to the human voice than, for instance, the glockenspiel or the bagpipes or the piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308200603' post='2254453'] It seems to me that, since it produces sound in a similar way to the human voice [/quote] But it doesn't. That's the crux of my entire grievance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 During the middle ages the organ would be referred to by organist of the time as "cantare in organis" which basically meant the voice of the organ sings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308202937' post='2254463'] But it doesn't. That's the crux of my entire grievance. [/quote] I said similar, not identical (on purpose, because I anticipated that objection). Also the sound that it produces is also rather similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308204405' post='2254472'] I said similar, not identical (on purpose, because I anticipated that objection). Also the sound that it produces is also rather similar. [/quote] Similar how? In that the sounds are both produced by vibrating air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308204712' post='2254473'] Similar how? In that the sounds are both produced by vibrating air? [/quote] Well that would include all sound period, so maybe a little too general. It has the basic similarities of causing sound by vibrating air due to pressure differences. If I understand vocal cords correctly, I think it would have to be admitted that they're more similar in function to a reed instrument, however at that point we also have to consider what sort of tone the instrument produces. The organ is less likely to overpower the voice than the clarinet, for instance, because as I perceive it, there's something in the sound itself in a pipe organ organ (the timbre, perhaps?) that more closely emulates a human voice than does a reed instrument. ETA: and this, of course, completely leaves out percussive instruments like the piano or the wretched (in liturgical use) drum kits... Edited June 16, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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