Sacred Music Vs. Secular Music In The Mass

[Cam42]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308528335' post='2256142']
If the Pope allows hymns in his liturgies, then I'm not about to say they are liturgical abuses.
[/quote]

Did you see the Mass at Pentecost? No hymns during Mass. Not one. There was Tu Es Petrus before Mass, as he was processing in, not part of the Mass. There was a fanfare as he was processing out...no hymns though.

However, the ordinaries and the propers were sung.

Catholic Tradition. The Pope had no hymns...

As it is, we're still arguing apples and oranges...

Hymns are not suited for Catholic Mass. The Mass has it's own particular way of worshiping through music. It is not with hymns. Hymns are para liturgical. What part of the documents that I posted are not clear enough?

Hymns are a Protestant form of liturgical worship which was introduced after Vatican II as a norm through innovation.

So, when you can prove that "On Eagles Wings" is Sacred Music, then I will change my mind. You can't. It is a hymn and at best it is para liturgical, from a Catholic point of view. The problem is that the para liturgical was introduced after Vatican II as a norm and that is an innovation. The Mass is not innovative, it is developed through thousands of years of tradition. It is within the last 50 years that it has been introduced. It is my contention that based upon those thousands of years of development and recent Church teaching that hymnody is not part of Catholic liturgical worship.

As late as 1967, Musicam Sacram which is a post Vatican Council II document says this:

[quote]28. The distinction between solemn, the high, and the low Mass, sanctioned by the 1958 Instruction (no. 3) remains in force, according to tradition and current law. But for pastoral reasons degrees of solemnity for the sung Mass are proposed here in order that it will become easier, in accord with each congregation's capability, to make the celebration of Mass more solemn through the use of singing.

[/quote]

At no time was the use of hymnody expected. It was forced upon us and became the norm through impostion as opposed to authentic teaching. It is through almost two generations of poor liturgical and theological catechesis that we are in the state we are in. The exclusive use of hymnody at Mass is part of the hermenuetic of discontinuity. The documents surrounding Vatican Council II support this talking point that I am making. At no time has the expectation been hymnody.

As for Papal Masses, they are supposed to be the ideal for Catholic liturgy, that doesn't mean that they actually are. For 25 years we were subjected to Archbishop Marini's view of what the liturgy should be. Pope John Paul II was not a liturgist. He was a philosopher. Marini on the other hand was the direct protege of Bugnini. It was Bugnini who was the architect of the Novus Ordo and the leader of the Consilium. It fell on Marini to promote Bugnini's ideas and he did that. It has been borne out that he has failed. The Masses of the last pontificate are passing into history, as Monsignor Guido Marini has a much better understanding of the hermeneutic of continuity. He is not trying to reimagine the Mass in his mentors image, but rather he is trying to bring legitimacy to that which has been abused badly since 1965 and put into action in 1967.

Had we better catechesis, we would not be in the liturgical dark night that we are currently in. We can thank a small group of men, led by Bugnini and perpetuated by Archbishop Marini, his protege....there is much work to do, but the first step is to understand that the Mass has music which is specific to her and hymns are not it. They never have been and they should not be counted as such.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Cam42

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308539864' post='2256202']
fixed
[/quote]
Oh, that's what you wanted? You should probably say that instead of being passive aggressive.
I apologize for implying that you're a dumb hippie.

[Luigi]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308528335' post='2256142']
If the Pope allows hymns in his liturgies, then I'm not about to say they are liturgical abuses.
[/quote]


Agreed.

If my pastor says "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if my bishop says, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the USCCB says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. Or if the pope tells a bunch of bishops on an ad limina visit, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the Congregation on Divine Worship says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. But until then, I'm not gonna get my shorts all up in a knot over guitars in church.

And if I didn't like guitar masses, I wouldn't go to 'em. I'd worship any way that I found meaningful and permissible.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308542329' post='2256220']
Agreed.

If my pastor says "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if my bishop says, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the USCCB says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. Or if the pope tells a bunch of bishops on an ad limina visit, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the Congregation on Divine Worship says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. But until then, I'm not gonna get my shorts all up in a knot over guitars in church.

And if I didn't like guitar masses, I wouldn't go to 'em. I'd worship any way that I found meaningful and permissible.
[/quote]
What if, just for instance, the CCCB says "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement"]no Humanae Vitae[/url]"? Just sayin'.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308542433' post='2256221']
What if, just for instance, the CCCB says "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement"]no Humanae Vitae[/url]"? Just sayin'.
[/quote]

What's your point?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308542859' post='2256224']
What's your point?
[/quote]
Bishops can be fails. Sometimes.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308541828' post='2256212']
Did you see the Mass at Pentecost? No hymns during Mass. Not one. There was Tu Es Petrus before Mass, as he was processing in, not part of the Mass. There was a fanfare as he was processing out...no hymns though.

However, the ordinaries and the propers were sung.

Catholic Tradition. The Pope had no hymns...

As it is, we're still arguing apples and oranges...

Hymns are not suited for Catholic Mass. The Mass has it's own particular way of worshiping through music. It is not with hymns. Hymns are para liturgical. What part of the documents that I posted are not clear enough?

Hymns are a Protestant form of liturgical worship which was introduced after Vatican II as a norm through innovation.

So, when you can prove that "On Eagles Wings" is Sacred Music, then I will change my mind. You can't. It is a hymn and at best it is para liturgical, from a Catholic point of view. The problem is that the para liturgical was introduced after Vatican II as a norm and that is an innovation. The Mass is not innovative, it is developed through thousands of years of tradition. It is within the last 50 years that it has been introduced. It is my contention that based upon those thousands of years of development and recent Church teaching that hymnody is not part of Catholic liturgical worship.

As late as 1967, Musicam Sacram which is a post Vatican Council II document says this:



At no time was the use of hymnody expected. It was forced upon us and became the norm through impostion as opposed to authentic teaching. It is through almost two generations of poor liturgical and theological catechesis that we are in the state we are in. The exclusive use of hymnody at Mass is part of the hermenuetic of discontinuity. The documents surrounding Vatican Council II support this talking point that I am making. At no time has the expectation been hymnody.

As for Papal Masses, they are supposed to be the ideal for Catholic liturgy, that doesn't mean that they actually are. For 25 years we were subjected to Archbishop Marini's view of what the liturgy should be. Pope John Paul II was not a liturgist. He was a philosopher. Marini on the other hand was the direct protege of Bugnini. It was Bugnini who was the architect of the Novus Ordo and the leader of the Consilium. It fell on Marini to promote Bugnini's ideas and he did that. It has been borne out that he has failed. The Masses of the last pontificate are passing into history, as Monsignor Guido Marini has a much better understanding of the hermeneutic of continuity. He is not trying to reimagine the Mass in his mentors image, but rather he is trying to bring legitimacy to that which has been abused badly since 1965 and put into action in 1967.

Had we better catechesis, we would not be in the liturgical dark night that we are currently in. We can thank a small group of men, led by Bugnini and perpetuated by Archbishop Marini, his protege....there is much work to do, but the first step is to understand that the Mass has music which is specific to her and hymns are not it. They never have been and they should not be counted as such.
[/quote]

That's all good and nice. And I sincerely hope that the liturgies of our current Pope will serve as examples and lead us toward proper use of music within the Mass. But, frankly, until the Pope completely eradicates all use of hymns (and I'm thinking ones like "Holy, Holy, Holy", "O God Beyond All Praising," and "To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King") in his own liturgies, I'm not going to go about saying they are liturgical abuses.

I'm not well-versed enough in this subject to argue with you. And you have great arguments. But I don't know enough to look at all of the angles and provide counter arguments. I don't know enough. If we were talking philosophy.... With that considered, I'm going to accept the examples I've seen by good and holy priests and educators, as well as our current Holy Father.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308542946' post='2256225']
Bishops can be fails. Sometimes.
[/quote]

It's a bad argument. Any bishop that would argue against Humane Vitae wouldn't be a bishop anymore. Comparing guitars at mass (Where Cardinal Arinze wouldn't even rule out guitars at mass) to contraception is silly

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308543513' post='2256232']
It's a bad argument. Any bishop that would argue against Humane Vitae wouldn't be a bishop anymore. Comparing guitars at mass (Where Cardinal Arinze wouldn't even rule out guitars at mass) to contraception is silly
[/quote]
I heard the vast majority of the Canadian bishops signed the Statement, yet they're all still bishops.
Just saying that bishops can sometimes be fails in some areas, so they can be fails in other areas too sometimes.

ETA: They *were* all still bishops. They're probably all dead now.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308541828' post='2256212']
Did you see the Mass at Pentecost? No hymns during Mass. Not one. There was Tu Es Petrus before Mass, as he was processing in, not part of the Mass. There was a fanfare as he was processing out...no hymns though.
...
[/quote]
Thanks for these posts. I was unaware that hymns were not a traditional part of our Latin Rite heritage.
How does hymnody fit in with the concept of organic development of the mass is the question that remains in my head.

[Cam42]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308543513' post='2256232']
It's a bad argument. Any bishop that would argue against Humane Vitae wouldn't be a bishop anymore. Comparing guitars at mass (Where Cardinal Arinze wouldn't even rule out guitars at mass) to contraception is silly
[/quote]


I agree, that is a terrible analogy...a better analogy would be that guitars are not suited for sacred music, because sacred music is suited for specific instrumentation. The guitar being a stringed instrument is not included in the parameters of what stringed instruments are allowed, specificially those which are played with a bow. (Please, please, I don't want to go down the Jimmie Page thing again...LULZ).

You and I have been down this road in the past....I'm willing to start up the conversation again, but it's going to be hard to show how a guitar is apt for liturgical worship, knowing that the very songs that are played on the guitar are not really part of Catholic liturgical tradition.

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308544082' post='2256240']
Thanks for these posts. I was unaware that hymns were not a traditional part of our Latin Rite heritage.
How does hymnody fit in with the concept of organic development of the mass is the question that remains in my head.
[/quote]


It doesn't. That is my whole point. Hymnody is para liturgical. It is for devotions specifically. Every document surrounding Vatican Council II bears this out. The use of hymns is a hijacking of the musical heritage of the Church, from a liturgical point of view.

[MithLuin]

Well, hymns are fine at low masses, and if the parts of the mass aren't being chanted, they'd fit in. So, it's not so much that hymns are paraliturgical as high masses are rare nowadays.

I do agree that the current state of affairs in the US was [i]not[/i] what was envisioned by the VII documents about the liturgy (or the follow-up about music in the liturgy).

I've attended Easter Vigil mass in St. Peter's basilica in Rome with Pope John Paul II presiding. It was a beautiful experience! Couldn't tell you what we sang, though - I honestly don't remember. What I [i]do[/i] remember is saying a few of the responses in Latin. Somewhere, I probably still have the booklet they gave out so we could all follow along (if we knew Italian, that is....).

Classical guitar exists. Rock and roll is not the only mode for a guitar.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCKn04NVMQw[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98y0Q7nLGWk[/media]


Yes, it's true that if you were going to form a rock band, you'd have a guitar, a bass, a drum set, probably a keyboard, and a lead singer. At least if you are playing RockBand on Wii
But that's not the only combination for a band. For instance, if you were forming a bluegrass band, you'd have all string instruments - violin, mandolin, banjo, upright bass, guitar (dobro and harmonica optional). No drums or piano. While bluegrass is a style conducive to certain hymns, I've never heard any used at a mass before, nor have I heard of a bluegrass band 'performing' at a mass. Some Protestant churches in certain places might be okay with that, but even so, it would be unusual.

When I think of 'traditional' hymns, I think of:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy6hST_Ysz0]Be Thou My Vision, 6th century[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRi1GDoaQu4]O Come O Come Emmanuel, 8-9th century[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKQYFgkcB8]Panis Angelicus, 13th century[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxyiUB1L0s]Tantum Ergo, 13th century[/url]

Obviously, some of these tunes came much later, but the texts existed (as hymns, even) throughout the Church's history.


At the mass I went to today, we had a piano, drums, a guitar, a violin, a flute and a choir [that I noticed, anyway; I seldom pay attention to instruments. For all I know, there was a tamborine.] But we also had a wonderful homily by a very reverent deacon who is being ordained a priest next weekend, and they rang the handbells for the consecration. So, you know...I have nothing to complain about. The congregation chanted the Our Father with no trouble, so I think we could've handled some of the stuff the Church wants us to do. It wasn't my parish (I've never been there before), so I don't know how typical this is of their Sunday evening service. Maybe it's not.

[Nihil Obstat]

The fact that a guitar is played in the classical style does not imply that it's appropriate for liturgical use.

[Cam42]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308550571' post='2256261']
Well, hymns are fine at low masses, and if the parts of the mass aren't being chanted, they'd fit in. So, it's not so much that hymns are paraliturgical as high masses are rare nowadays.

I do agree that the current state of affairs in the US was [i]not[/i] what was envisioned by the VII documents about the liturgy (or the follow-up about music in the liturgy).

I've attended Easter Vigil mass in St. Peter's basilica in Rome with Pope John Paul II presiding. It was a beautiful experience! Couldn't tell you what we sang, though - I honestly don't remember. What I [i]do[/i] remember is saying a few of the responses in Latin. Somewhere, I probably still have the booklet they gave out so we could all follow along (if we knew Italian, that is....).

Classical guitar exists. Rock and roll is not the only mode for a guitar.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCKn04NVMQw[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98y0Q7nLGWk[/media]


Yes, it's true that if you were going to form a rock band, you'd have a guitar, a bass, a drum set, probably a keyboard, and a lead singer. At least if you are playing RockBand on Wii
But that's not the only combination for a band. For instance, if you were forming a bluegrass band, you'd have all string instruments - violin, mandolin, banjo, upright bass, guitar (dobro and harmonica optional). No drums or piano. While bluegrass is a style conducive to certain hymns, I've never heard any used at a mass before, nor have I heard of a bluegrass band 'performing' at a mass. Some Protestant churches in certain places might be okay with that, but even so, it would be unusual.

When I think of 'traditional' hymns, I think of:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy6hST_Ysz0"]Be Thou My Vision, 6th century[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRi1GDoaQu4"]O Come O Come Emmanuel, 8-9th century[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKQYFgkcB8"]Panis Angelicus, 13th century[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxyiUB1L0s"]Tantum Ergo, 13th century[/url]

Obviously, some of these tunes came much later, but the texts existed (as hymns, even) throughout the Church's history.


At the mass I went to today, we had a piano, drums, a guitar, a violin, a flute and a choir [that I noticed, anyway; I seldom pay attention to instruments. For all I know, there was a tamborine.] But we also had a wonderful homily by a very reverent deacon who is being ordained a priest next weekend, and they rang the handbells for the consecration. So, you know...I have nothing to complain about. The congregation chanted the Our Father with no trouble, so I think we could've handled some of the stuff the Church wants us to do. It wasn't my parish (I've never been there before), so I don't know how typical this is of their Sunday evening service. Maybe it's not.
[/quote]

Do we have low Masses and High Masses in the OF? Last time I checked we didin't. That is another abuse of the Mass which has become the norm. There is to be a distinction between a said Mass and a Sung Mass, but in order to perpetuate this idea of music being participatio activa as opposed to participatio actuosa, every Mass has been relegated to a de facto low Mass. So, yet another thing that has been taken from us. Are you starting to see a pattern with liturgical worship and the lack of sacredness going on?

Good. I'm glad you can see that the liturgical situation as envisioned by Vatican Council II has not been implemented. If it has not, wouldn't it be a fair assumption to say that the leadership with regard to "liturgical renewal" has been lying to us for 40 years, if that is the case? And if they have been lying to us, what does that make the majority of the changes to the Mass? I'll let you figure that one out; sufficive to say, there is most certainly a cause for the hermeneutic of rupture or discontinuity.

I SANG for John Paul II at Midnight Mass in 1997. We're still the only American choir that has had that honor. As it is, that was right before I figured out and became emersed in the new liturgical movement. We sang 4 hymns, Mass was in Italian and there was Gregorian Chant as a prelude. I do still have the program and I am saddened by what Archbishop Piero Marini put the Mass through during John Paul II's pontificate.

I already spoke about the difference regarding classical guitar. If you would like to show me a piece of sacred music, as defined by the Church from the period in which the classical guitar was in it's heyday, I would much appreciate it. (hint: you won't be able to find one) I'm not talking about a modern translation of Mozart or something along that line, I am talking about a source piece.

You give several examples of bands, you admit are forbidden....yet in all of the examples a guitar or a variant of a guitar is part of it. Oh, and I'm glad you've never seen a bluegrass ensemble play at Mass. I have. I was born and raised during my young childhood in Memphis, TN. My family on my Dad's side still lives there. The parish next to the one that I was baptized and received my Sacraments of initiation in had a group called the Laudate Singers. They are (they exist in their 3rd edition now) a bluegrass band that plays for Mass. It is terrible.

So, you think that you have nothing to complain about? I hope you were being sarcastic. Both the piano and handbells are specifically forbidden. A sanctus bell is not, but it is not a handbell in the same vein as a handbell choir. Again, the Protestantization of the Mass....ie. taking those things which are first Protestant and applying them to the Mass. That is another innovation.

When I think of traditional hymns, I think of the same things as you, but I all of those hymns which you list are proper to devotions. They are not proper to the Mass and another small hint, the Tantum Ergo is part of the Panis Angelicus. In case you were curious. Hymnody has no place in the Mass. Not now, not ever. The instrument which is most proper to the Mass is the unaccompanied human voice, but in those instances where support and edification of the human voice is warranted, certain instrumentation is allowed, with the organ having pride of place among them.

Finally, with regard to Chant and the ease of use. Chant is easier to sing than modern music. There is no SATB, it is all sung in unison. There is a 4 bar clef which is not necessarily needed, as Chanting is first an aural experience, as opposed to two 5 bar clefs. It is designed to hinge on DO, as opposed to finding a key or a certain note to start on. So, if you can sing DO-RE-MI-FA-SO-LA-TI-DO; you can chant. Yes, it really is that easy. I dare say trying to find the dissinent 7th that begins "On Eagles' Wings" is much harder.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Cam42